Interesting. Have you looked at other ministries? I was thinking that nurses and midwives tend to be female too (and are notoriously underpaid). Also, any thoughts about how to encourage men to go into teaching? I think the younger the child the more female dominated and the harder to change it. Most early childhood teachers are women, and any men in that field seem to be harshly judged by parents


I would never put myself into a position where I am responsible for the care of children. It's a dangerous position to put yourself in as a dude. I'd actually love to be a teacher, but given the weird looks you get at the playground for *watching your own children play* I'm not gonna put myself in a position where the kids aren't even mine. You want men to move into education? Stop the narrative that all men are predatora waiting to strike.


that's a very true double standard. Same goes for female teachers that are sentenced for inappropriate conduct with a male student vs male teachers with female student. On average male teachers get much harsher punishments.


Sexual assault from a female to a male was not illegal until I think the 90s as everyone thought it wasn't possible. These days there is about one case a week in the media of some inappropriate sexual case involving a female teacher. All humans suck and it's crazy to pretend otherwise.


What's super disgusting is people saying "damn, I wish that had been me - what a lucky guy" when it's a 13 year old boy and his teacher.


Male primary school teacher here. It’s not a dangerous job as long as you are aware and keep yourself safe. There are lots of ways to do this, but they key thing is to never let yourself be in a position where you are alone in a room with a child. If you really have to be, make sure you are clearly visible and have curtains/doors open. It’s a great job if you have the disposition for it. The work is never-ending, but the pay is pretty good and the holidays are amazing - even if you spend half of them planning like I do. As a male teacher you are super in-demand as well. You will never be out of a job if you want one.


I understand what you're saying and I appreciate you for what you do. You're a valuable contributor to our community and that's important. It's this bit though "as long as you are aware and keep yourself safe". That just seems like a stressful overhead to have always in the back of your mind. Like, there's always some amount of being aware and safe in any job. I'm in the automotive industry, health and safety and situational awareness is pretty important, but I never need to worry that someone has seen my interaction with a customer and drawn a very wrong conclusion that will ruin my life. If I fuck up something that badly it's because I actually fucked it up that badly. Maybe it's not that bad, I'm just not brave enough to put myself in that position. Kudos to you dude, you're a real life hero.


I totally see where you are coming from. As is the case with lots of these things, a few bad apples have made it made it much more difficult for the rest of us. I’m married and have children of my own and so I think this makes it easier for parents to feel comfortable having their children in my care. That said, they wouldn’t think twice about a female teacher, so there is a definite imbalance there.


For sure. I mean, look at one of the replies in my thread from a female teacher who has openly admited that she actively and intensly scrutinises men in this role. It's amazing that she can do that lol. Like if I were to just put it out there that I actively scrutinise any work done by our lady fitters/mechanics because I think they're more likely to make a major mistake because they're women (I don't), can you imagine the what the response to that would be? Can you imagine if it could be demonstrated that I was actively doing that in the workplace by our staff? I straight up wouldn't have a job anymore lol, as I shouldn't, because that's toxic AF.


You're not wrong. I wanted to be a teacher because of a single very effective science teacher who helped me realize how much of a dick I was being as a teen. When I looked into it though, the whole culture around it was toxic enough I noped out and ended up being an advocate instead. No shit, the first thing said to me when I started checking it out in high school was: "YOU want to be a teacher? But you're a guy. You know you can't have sex with the students, right?". That sentence was probably the biggest factor in me changing my mind. From careers advisor no less


From a careers advisor! Hope you reported them, that's disgusting.


It was a she, but nah. She was like that with a bunch of things, enough I stopped bothering to see her


What the actual fuck man.


Late 90's, early 00's. No one really checked what they were saying then


That's my era lol. Yeah, it was pretty wild. Still, that's a pretty fucked up thing to say to a kid. It's like one step removed from "You're Māori (pronounced mah-rie), wouldn't you rather look at a career as a stop/go man?"


Lol, that it was. I'm from the south so it's far from the worst I heard. Some of the stuff said to us at high and primary school would've been national news these days


There is a new rule now that teaches can’t stand in front of a child in an authoritative manner. It’s the same has physical contact. Working with them would be like handling live grenades.


I'm interested in the wording of this rule and where it came from? Would love a source? Haven't heard it personally in my 12 years in the classroom


Yeah, I’m also a teacher and no one told me this? People really do make the wildest claims about the profession.


The Peter Ellis case means you are going to be hard pressed to find men willing to go into education any more.


100% this male teachers will likely never be in ECE or younger child care and teaching there also seems to be systemic issues with this as parents prefer female teachers in the younger age groups


Police are probably the best analogy I can think of. Currently 25% of the constabulary are female but they have a bug push in place to raise that to 40% within the next decade. A stark contrast to what is happening about the gender imbalance in education. https://www.hcamag.com/nz/specialisation/employment-law/females-on-the-frontline-more-women-join-the-police-force/408300


Idk if that’s realistic given the physicality of the job.


It isn't a good idea at all. My partner works for the police and I'm friends with quite a few cops male and female through her and most of them are happy to admit that female officers cannot physically do the job as well as a man. It will get dangerous soon enough.


It depends on what aspect of the job you mean. There are plenty of policing roles that don’t require high levels of physical strength.


Sure, but do you balance things with disproportionate female representation in those areas? Or do you acknowledge that policing is a vital social service, and maybe hiring the best individual for a job shouldn't be based on quotas?


No way in hell I’d be a teacher. My partner (33/F) is a teacher and she is constantly shifting between staying and leaving the job. My observations are leadership positions constantly go to those who have been their longest, not on merit. This has resulted in poor leadership time after time. I’ve also witnessed leadership teams are (more often) women’s clubs, and if they are not, they are men’s clubs. Teachers also have much too high class numbers. I work in professional consulting and she has more meetings than I do. She also has parents (mums) messaging her personal phone at all hours. I think teaching is at the pointy end of more societal issues. Time poor parents resulting in different parenting methods and stress, technology, and education trying to do too much. I think there is a degree of not being firm enough with some children, who get away with things much too often. I don’t know the answer but I can say all it does is disrupt learning of other students and causes teachers to burn out quickly.


How on earth do parents even know the teachers personal number? Is this a common thing?!


No. This would be a rookie mistake. School email only unless you want: >parents (mums) messaging her personal phone at all hours.


Mine texts us every now and again. Usually over one of the kids extra things like the eldest's science competition of our middles math stuff. Last time I got a text from her would have been where for us to meet them after the maths competition a couple weeks ago


Unfortunately it has a way of getting out. We are in a town in Central Otago. All it takes is asking around and someone will throw the number about.


> who get away with things much too often. That's because the ivory tower dip shits in the Ministry curtailed our ability to throw out the antisocial pricks. The biggest barrier to effective treating is all the protection around degenerates who want to destroy the education of 20-30 other students. Fuck the slim anti-social minority. Why is there education worth destroying everyone elses? Throw 'em out and ship them to a specialist school with all other degenerates so they only harm people with no future. I'm sick of having struggling kids struggle even more because some gang prospect cunt is blaring music, calling me/others cunts and trying to start fights. I'm more sick of every bastard not in the classrooms with those degenerates that defend them! Fuck their future, they don't care about anyone else's! The only thing that makes me stressed is when someone who routinely enters my room with the purpose of harming the learning of everyone else is protected. I just go against protocol and keep booting the fuckers out and smashing heads with any leadership that tries to defend them. I know I'm doing the right thing because every other student in the room doesn't complain about my actions. If you have misread a situation and are being unfair you will have half the class defending the falsely accused. But if someone is a cunt, they will back you up and explain how they are being a cunt in the language you are not allowed to use and a tone you are not allowed to use. The answer is, throw out the degenerates. They are anti-social and just going to join a gang anyway. Because dad is in a gang and his dad was in a gang, or their brother is in a gang. Or their cousin is in a gang. Again, they have no future, so fuck 'em. Everyone else has far more potential then they do so lets protect that potential. Instead of harming dozens of futures on the off chance the kid flirting with the Mongrel Mob grows enough brain cell to realize being a criminal is a cunty career choice.


I assumed it was a) the social stigma around men being see as “caregivers” and therefore not pursuing teaching/nursing/historically feminine careers as not to be seen as a woman when they’ve always had the option to. And b) the pay is shit. I think there’s been some studies thrown around that men look for higher paying jobs more so than women, and that could also be because of the social stigma that “the man should provide”. I personally haven’t read those studies, so take with a grain of salt. I hope there’s been a shift in the social idea of men being in such roles, and I do think it’s why boys are falling behind in their education. But that encouragement can’t solely come from government, and when everyone’s saying being a teacher sucks why should *anyone* be a teacher? Edit: a lot of people have mentioned the fear of being seen as a sexual predator or of false accusation in replies. That was already heavily mentioned in the comments before I’ve made mine so I didn’t feel the need to add it in my own. If OP’s point was “why isn’t the government doing anything for equality in this sector”, there’s not a lot that the government can do to dispel such a disgusting stigma. Again, I do hope for a shift in such perceptions to encourage more men to go into teaching professions.


Teachers never used to be viewed as “caregivers”. That’s a new phenomenon. Teachers used to be viewed as “educators” and the majority of them were men. It’s all about perception. Or... I guess some of it’s not perception…


Interesting point. My dad taught for 40 odd years between high school and primary school roles. Back in the 80s and early 90s I remember seeing many more male teachers around in the classrooms when we went with him to play on the grounds while he did some marking or prep. Into the late 90s and early 00s I saw many many more females entering primary school roles. I had quite a few male teachers in my time during primary school. (Including my father for a year). I wonder what the stats of male teachers over the decades is, and if it’s a perception bias or if it’s trended down? When you look back to movies and/or adverts and documentaries, when using a strap or a cane, it seems like there were many more male teachers using the blackboard to write up the class lessons.


This has definitely flipped in the last 20 years (at least) with pay not increasing at the same rate more women as primary caregivers to their own children choosing to work more child-friendly roles. As a result, pay has been left behind when it used to be equal to that of a politician and we now all treat our teachers like shit. If we sorted out what we paid them for the work that they do (which is genuinely tireless, I have three teachers/retired teachers in my immediate family) then maybe we could encourage more gender equality in the area to rebalance it all.


Incidents like the Civic Creche led to may male teachers not wanting to be accused of things like that. Hell even when I was at school I remember girls telling a teacher they would report him for something just because they failed a test.


That seems like something that would happen at Highschool (35% male teachers) ... which incidently has more male teachers than primary (15% male teachers) and ECE (No data available) And primary/ece has more risk associated with kids learning boundaries with touching/cuddling and potentially needing to assist with toileting and soiling of clothes. -- edited to add the male teacher percentages


(Edited for info) The men were, for sure. The women certainly were viewed as caregivers more so than the men. In 1931 the government gave education boards the right to fire married women from teaching. Woman teachers were more often given caregiver (kindergarten) roles and universally lower pay until 1960, as well as being systematically excluded from promotion to high positions.


I mean, I know Australians think of NZ as just another state, but...


Oops! I’m a kiwi in Melbourne and thought I was in the other sub. Thank you! Edited it


Depends. The teachers of younger children (kindergarten, primary) are mostly female. The teachers of accredited adults (tertiary) are mostly male. The former often involves a level of 'childcare' in that your charges *are children*, whereas the latter does tend to have more prestige and pay.


Males have to be so so careful in teaching environments now for fear of being called a pedo/sexual assault etc that many males I know who wanted to be a teacher decided it’d be an easier path to not bother and go do something else. Shame because I believe they would have been great teachers.


I wonder how much of that is a perceived risk than a real one. I’ve worked in situations with vulnerable children before and there are situations as a guy I was told to never put myself in for risk mitigation. We have a male teachers at my ECE center and I wonder how many nappies they change in comparison to their female counterparts. I imagine it’s a situation of “door must be open if a nappy is being changed” rule that applies to all teachers not just male ones.


Yeah, there's the potential upshot where women end up having to do all of the literal shit-work but don't get paid extra to compensate. A similar thing happens (but mostly for different reasons) with the "pastoral care" incidental to teaching and teaching-like jobs right up to university, where women end up doing more of it but don't get compensated for that extra work.


Male ECE teacher here, 10 years experience. Can confirm I change nappies just like the ladies. 3% male representation in ECE Mainly due to lower pay, perception it's a women's job, and a few famous sexual abuse cases in the 90s that scared men off. However I've encountered literally only a couple of people who think it's weird for a man to be an EC teacher, 99% including parents are super excited to have a guy in ECE- if I had a dollar everytime someone said 'we need more men in education' I'd be wealthier than my brother who works in tech programming 😅 If you're a guy who enjoys working with kids I totally encourage you to get into it, if you can get into kindergarten (which is fully government funded) the pay starts at 55K and goes up to 90k after 10 years experience, it's way better than anywhere else in ECE which is terrible pay.


Unfortuantely $90k doesn't even begin to cut it. I'm on close to double that in tech, so the pay just doesn't stack up :( As I said, it's a "If I win lotto" job. I would want to keep working, but can do it out of passion instead of necessity. As for male teachers, we had a guy come through our center doing a placement (if that's what it's called), he chose our daughter who has some health challenges to be the primary focus. It was such a good experience to have a male figure in the pepe room. Seeing the stories of him giving her cuddles and her admiration towards this male teacher just filled me with such warmth.


Lol 30k over average wage doesn't cut it? I know what you're getting at, but surely you realize how out of touch that sounds


One of the reasons we picked my son's daycare (in Melbourne though) was because they have male ece teachers (3 across 6 rooms), and he has an amazing bond with one of them. My brother finds it hard to believe it was something I would value.


Yes it may be a ‘perceived risk’, but its still going to put a decent chunk of men off just from stories of things that happen infrequently


Yea it used to be majority teachers were men once.


A friend suggested is make a great teacher but I’d rather be miserable in IT than suffer a teacher’s salary


It's only really shit compared to crazy IT salaries (and even then that's at the top end with plenty of shit IT salaries out there particularly if you young as it getting increasingly crowded). 90K+ is 60% above median wage.


There's also studies that show that when women begin to dominate a field, pay drops for that field.


Interesting, mind linking it?


The pay is shit? Five years and you're on 90k. I've been in my line of work for nine years and am yet to get any where near 90k. Teaching salaries are dope and any one who thinks unions suck has obviously never had anything to do with the teachers union. They have their shit together.


I have been teaching for 9 years (1 year off too on maternity leave) and I’m not on 90k yet. Also you need a school with modules (units) available.


Agreed! Teaching pays super well. Plus if you can take on extra modules you get even more. I’ve been in my tertiary-educated career for 15 years and still not at $90k. Teaching salaries are definitely dope.


Thats a nice way of putting it. Men actively avoid situations where they could be accused of being pedophiles.


I've noticed a big difference in kura kaupapa and mainstream education. It seems there are a lot more men working in the Māori sector and they are few and far between in mainstream. I'm curious why that is.


c) men are also broadly viewed as dangerous, even as predators. The ones who are interested in entering into fields that work with children see significantly higher scrutiny. This probably discourages even interested men from entering the field; the men who *do* enter the field may experience stigma and retire early or seek to move out of it. There are far more women than men among caregiving and teaching of young children, but comparatively *much* more men among teaching of adults.


Teachers are a challenging one. My husband and I are both teachers, we love what we do but acknowledge there are some equity issues. While only 24% of teachers are men, they do tend to have more higher ranked positions within schools: principals, deputy principals ect… on the other hand this may be because of the mistrust of men working with young people that may make them less interested in classroom teaching and keen to move further from it in an effort to distance themselves. Teachers colleges routinely use scare tactics to freak out trainees about parents or fellow staff members misconstruing your actions and getting you removed from the profession. Additionally we are told not to use dating apps because kids will find us on them. The result? Single guys aren’t usually super keen to get into the classroom, and they stand more of a chance at remaining single if they do. Teaching can be super isolating and insular, it’s why so many of us marry within the profession.


One of my flatmates was a male teacher, but he quit because there was always this suspicion about males working with young children. I can understand, because I was forcibly shifted on a flight once because a young girl had been inadvertently placed next to me and I was told that I needed to swap with a woman.


I know guys have it worse in this, but it honestly pisses me off too because I'm not good with kids, honestly find them quite gross and don't like them, but I'm female so I must love looking after kids and being seated next to them, right?!


No that’s fair because women can’t be sex offenders /s


But did you enjoy getting Ghislaines business class seat?




Is the sexism you experience predominantly from the parents? I'm sorry that you have to deal with that, and fully agree that teacher's pay is not up to par. Teaching jobs need to be attractive compared to the private sector if you want to attract more great teachers. Thank you for the work you do




Wow, thank you for sticking with this regardless. As a woman in tech I am equally p*ssed at the notion of telling men what they can and cannot do. It's the other side of the same coin. Unconscious bias is so easy to creep in, and having to deal with sexism is exhausting no matter your gender.


Have a question is it lazy or exhausted from the hustle of trying to earn money?


From what I’ve seen - and I’m not a teacher or anything I’m just going off social media - a lot of parents expect the school to now do a lot of their role. Like why aren’t we teaching X or Y? When that’s like, for example, cooking class. The parent should realistically be teaching their kid how to cook, not school (with the exception of high school, where it’s more career orientated). I think that’s lazy on the parents part. This is probably not the best example but I’m still drinking my coffee so you’ll have to give me a bit 😂


My wife sees the same thing with the parents she deals with. A lot of parents dont enforce homework and expect the teachers to help motivate the kid to do it. Many parents also want special treatment for their kid like extra extension time for assignments, re-re-re-dos for exams. She's even had one parent just straight up ask her to give her kid a passing credit for a failed piece of work. I can't speak for anywhere else but honestly sounds like some of the parents the school deals with are a nightmare.


My wife had a father write her an angry email saying he was sick of receiving emails about his son's behavior, and why weren't they doing anything about it? How do you even respond to that kind of obliviousness? Fella, teachers are there to teach, not raise your children.


Omg - with that attitude being taught, the child will struggle later in life.




That’s terrible and unfortunately probably going to become more prevalent. Around ten years ago, I knew a little girl (think toddler/young but ability to speak), and she was swearing her head off. And her family thought it was ok/funny? If I swore as a kid my mum would literally use soap in my mouth. Not the most socially acceptable tactic but it worked - only swore that one time around her 😂. But you don’t even need to go that far to enforce those boundaries - not accepting it or condoning that behaviour with laughter is a good start. Or go sit in the naughty corner/step was still effective punishment. But no. Now we have literal children ram raiding and stealing from freaking Toy World




That’s sad, I can imagine it’ll only get worse especially once she hits teenage years.


The parents have been working all day, in many cases for shit pay, because that's the only way they can afford the absurd cost of housing and groceries for a family. It's not too surprising that they're not going to be up for a lot of teaching the kids after that. It's a shit situation all around, and it's not likely to improve until people don't have to work so many hours to take home a half-decent amount of money.


Another male teacher here (until I left this year due to sexism and lack of support from management) Lazy.


In the days I went to school. there was always a good representation of male to female teachers, in fact I think at primary school level there seemed to be more male teachers. You can blame in part the wages/salary, but more importantly the sexual abuse allegations a male can be exposed too. There were quite a few stunning accusations in the 70's and 80's against male teachers, some true and some not. I dont blame a male for not wishing to have his career ( and life) destroyed and choosing other career paths.


I’d absolutely love to be a teacher, kids are dope, and watching them understand newly acquired knowledge is very rewarding. But as a male, fuck that risk. One false allegation, even just one pissed off student that bullshits even a hint of anything in anger and I’d be toast. Not worth it.


It's not even just serious crimes like sexual assaults. You can be given a mark of 'serious misconduct' for taking headphones off a student as seen in the recent case in the news.


Agreed. It’s almost impossible for a male to be a kindergarten or primary school teacher without issue. A parent showing up to drop their kid off too kindy, they don’t want to see a man. I understand their fear but i do not agree with it. The media loves to speak about the negative things affecting women in the workplace and it does need to be spoken about. But the statistics that affect men at work go far beyond a pay gap. Just one example, men are TEN TIMES more likely to die at work than women. It’s funny we don’t hear about equalising that. 77% of suicides are men. Funny we don’t hear about that. (although mens mental health is pushed in the media in this country rather well i must say.) Privileges exist for everyone regardless of gender or race.




>the fear of men = predators is real I live near a primary school, have to walk past it to catch the bus to work sometimes, and I have had dirty looks and one time even had a parent tell me I shouldn't be near the school... I told her to fuck off and kept walking. Made me so mad, yet we're to blame for not wanting to work around kids.


literally lived across the road from a primary school and had this happen often. had to plan my entire day around not leaving the house around 2:50 - 3:10 because of these weirdo mums (and the parking but that's just common sense)


I get looks when I take my toddler to swimming lessons even though I *literally have a child with me*.


That's rough, I'm not a parent, but that would piss me off if I was.


> Men will hardly ever end up in a Primary School New Entrants class due to the physicality of some young students needing toilet help, or them hugging us while they learn boundaries. I live next to a preschool. I have never seen a man enter the school. All the staff are women. The mothers take their kids inside. Fathers drop them at the gate.


That sounds like a fucking weird preschool


"Teach NZ scholarships target men" Since when? There used to be about a hundred in the past for Maori, Maori speakers, and Pasifika. And that was pretty much it. Definately nothing for being male. When I pointed this out I was told having anything for males would be sexist.


I will just put this out there , I have a close friend (male) who all his life lived to teach and loved it as it was all he ever wanted to do and successfully did so for just over 25yrs. Then 5 yrs ago a single female student who disliked him intensely made a allegation, and the system took the word of a 13yr old, over a 45yr old , turned out the allegation was false as we expected as anyone who knows my friend knew it would be. But allegations stick even when proved false and it destroyed his career. As a Male who the hell would want to be in an environment where it’s possible to have everything destroyed in a blink of an eye. Kids today are not like kids of yesterday they are way more vindictive and petty and know they can get away with it. I don’t know a single young man (got two boys of my own) who even wants to teach , so we all have to accept our society has taken this option away.


My male cousin has been teaching for the last 5 years and has rescently resigned and left education entirely. All I have listened to for 5 years is the horrific level of sexist bullying that went on.


Can confirm it does happen


Could you elaborate on what sort of sexist bullying went on?


Do you have any examples (non identifiying of course)?


When are they going to address the gender inequality within the construction industry, including digger operators and laborers? Must be over 95% male.


They already are. There have been several public pushes to get women into trades and there's a [whole not-for-profit whose sole purpose is to try encourage women to work in trades](https://www.womenintradesnz.com/). Unfortunately the women who are already *in* trades tend to warn other women not to join, because it's still insanely misogynistic and harmful environment for women.


Yep I see ads for this type of thing a lot.


I work in construction and I have to say, it's generally a very toxic environment for women to be in. Women need to put up with a lot of shit that they shouldn't have to tolerate in the industry.


I would have loved to do a physical trade, but i live in a currently being built subdivision and i hear how those people talk all the time and it's a big nope. Seems like you'd have to be dead inside to work construction as a woman.


Working in the residential sector is rightly terrifying. Long hours, average pay, terrible culture. Working in the commercial and industrial sectors as a tradesperson is much more lucrative, though it’s hidden from view from much of the public. High pay, great benefits, professional culture.


My female friend works construction and fuck me what a toxic place it can be for her. She is strong and very capable but the misogyny she’s up against and the verbal abuse daily is wild.


I'm in mechanical engineering trades, and as a female, it's dogshit. The only other female in my entire department doesn't put her overalls in to be washed at work because they hang them in the men's locker room and she's had ...bodily fluids... left on them before. Going to HR causes more shit than it's worth. I'm lucky that I'm older and my partner works in the same area as me so I cop less shit. I still get less opportunities and have to fight like hell to be trained on new things. My confidence in my own abilities (and sanity) has taken a hit for sure. Also, you learn the true meaning of infantilisation and well-meaning micromanagement. By being 'nice' they actually stunt you.


Toxic AF workplace, nobody wants to work at a place they get sexualized and joked at all the time for minimum wage


I would have liked to go into construction or another trade, but there's an absolutely rampant misogyny problem there. You're either putting up with constant and atrocious misogyny, you're getting into frequent arguments, or you're having to out-bloke the blokes (and that one is not guaranteed to work). Sort that crap out and we might start to see some improvement there.


I work in the industry and know full well the sexist misogyny that is there and regrettably when I was a younger man I participated in it. So I ask, is there a way to sort that out without more women coming into the industry? I feel like one leads into the other. I'm doubtful it will just sort itself out.


Yeah honestly it is a pretty difficult one, it's a nasty self-perpetuating issue, plus it's kind of like trying to cure the hangover from a few thousand years of patriarchy. Any kind of structural attempt to deal with it directly gets a lot of pushback (which is not to say we shouldn't do it, but it will take more than that), and often when women do go into the trades they end up warning other women away, so there's that negative feedback loop. I think ultimately the the thing that tips the balance is having those small-scale and somewhat uncomfortable conversations when someone is being a dick, especially with younger guys since that can make the most difference long-term, and it'll take a long long time.


I for one am tired of every person coming to empty my septic tank being male, when will we reach gender equality in this area?


A lot of that was the fear of being accused of molesting children. There are a number of cases over the last few decades that scared a lot of men away from education. This is the result of that fear.


When I think about becoming a teacher, being accused of anything didn't come to mind, it was the low pay/long hours that concerns me the most


Yeah. I'm a bit older than most entering the profession and my kids are almost all old enough to be able to organise themselves. Money isn't a factor for me and the long hours won't bother me too much.


The Christchurch satanic panic was a horrifying example that ruined lives.


How have I never heard of this?!


I think OP is talking about more than just gender imbalances amongst teachers. There are gender imbalances amongst results aswell. Your comment was amongst my initial reaction, but I took a moment and went back and reread the post. Certainly part of the problem is a lack of make teachers(especially in ECE and primary), but I would be curious as to what the gender imbalances are like in results across differing socioeconomic groups. 1. Wealthy vs poor 2. Pakeha vs Asian vs Maori vs Indian vs.. [insert culture/race] (I ask this because education has a high focus in certain cultures, so curious to know if the results are similar across all cultures] 3. Results in regions can results in cities. OP raises a fair point, but is missing a lot of important information. For example if the gender imbalance split is much more prevelant in a racial or income disparity, there could be reasons why boys might be falling behind as they may feel the system has let them down and has no trust, or they may feel like they need to look after their families so drop out earlier to get a job and income.. We just don’t know. But I think it’s a fair question to raise if anyone else has any better insight to continue the discussion Edit For what it’s worth, my father was a teacher, spent 40 years teacher mostly primary schools. I would venture into ECE if the pay was better. I’ve always thought that if I won lotto I’d resign from tech and go become an ECE teacher. I love kids and love watching their little light bulbs go off when they learn something new. But I earn FAR too much to change careers.


Funnily enough I'm off to Teachers College next year to retrain as a Primary Teacher. I will never earn as much as I can right now but I'm going to be much happier doing something I love, which is teaching.


I had a few teachers who did this (in highschool) and they all told me it was a really good decision for their overall wellbeing - best of luck in the career shift.


> I earn FAR too much to change careers. That's the same boat I'm in. Men are told that they are failures if they can't provide. You can't raise a family as the sole earner on a teachers salary.


I told my husband he had to choose another career. No point in having one that can be taken away by a spiteful parent or child/teen. A single accusation is all it takes.


It's a risk. I don't personally know anyone in teaching that has had an accusation, but I did work with a guy who was falsely accused. A friend of his ex wife accused him of grooming her son. It was all bullshit designed to restrict access to his own son. It all eventually came out and he has custody of his kid now, but for about two years he wasn't able to see his son at all. An accusation is as good as a conviction.


So why no national strategy to counteract that fear? Why at the very least is there not more equal representation in the MoE leadership team?


The answer is its a complex problem to resolve. Predators hide in plain sight and use tactics on victims to silence them. Groups in authority work together a la Dilworth. False accusations exist. Leadershsip reflects participation. Work has been done on strategies to address sexual abuse by the ministry.


What government would create a strategy to do that, knowing they'd not only be accused of being pro-paedophile, but also that from that point forward they'd inevitably be blamed for any high-profile child molestation cases in the education system?


How does one jump from equality at leadership level to being pro-paedophile?


Gee I don't know, maybe when I said "What government would create a **strategy** to do that" I was specifically responding to "why no national **strategy** to counteract that fear"


Gender roles damage society. Gender roles damage mental health. Gender roles damage men. Gender roles damage women. Any step taken to deconstruct gender roles is a step in the right direction. EDIT: Any sexism that hurts men, automatically hurts women. Not a teacher? Women’s job. That’s to pussy. Be a real man.


Yea, I don’t know that it’s a recruitment issue as much as a societal gender issue. I’m a male social worker. All the caring and helping professions are largely female staff. Pay rates often reflect that too. You’ll find the opposite trend in building, tech, and engineering. That’s skewed the complete opposite direction. We actually just need more guys to go, “hey, I really care about good outcomes for kids. I’m going to be a teacher!”


I'm a male social worker as well. I'm surprised you would think it is up to men to just change. Society could do things to make it easier for men too enter roles like ours. We've done this for women but generally don't do it for men and expect them to just man up. Hyperagency is our bias when we talk about men. And mens lives have suffered for society not assuming it's role in supporting us.


I was a male primary school teacher. it's what I wanted to do with my life and i devoted my university time as well as my last few years of schooling to going down that path. From the very beginning I was viewed as a pedophile. I was told off for having a student working nearer my side of the desk. She learnt better with closer supervision, slightly removed from her classmates. That same day I saw one of my female colleagues hug three of her students tightly. I had a sexual allegation made against me for rubbing the upper back of a crying student. I was investigated for sexual assault. Of course, because I did \*nothing\* sexual, nothing came of it. I still left the profession. I get paid more doing less, and nobody calls me a pedophile now.


Sounds like you need to change your username.


Such a fucking hassle, He said for the past four years.


the difference is teaching is seen as a shit job even tho its one of the most important jobs


It is so important to have men at all stages of childhood education. So very important. Right from toddler onwards. However, I also note that teachers are paid pathetically and over time neither men or women have run towards the profession, or been enticed towards it, hence the situation we find ourselves in now. It’s been propped up by imports. I know there has been a push to get more men into teaching but they’re also fighting against stereotypes, negative PR and as well as the aforementioned pay scale. Another interesting note is that historically most principals are men, so the few men that are in teaching, they’re historically more likely to be promoted.


You can't help but be taken aback by the enormous hypocrisy and double standard. *'Diversity'*(tm) doesn't care about actual diversity.


Also there are over 3000 Midwives in NZ and just 3 are male 🤔


Our first child had a male midwife (in 2007). He was great!


This one makes sense though, I think most women would be more comfortable with a female midwife


This doesn’t surprise me at all. It makes sense in this particular industry.


It’s almost like women can have first hand experience of what labour and delivery is like. Real world experience counts for a lot. Anecdotally I know many drug counsellors and youth workers who have had difficult lives themselves and want to use their experiences to ensure no one else goes through that. I also know if midwives who have had difficult births OR had a connection so strong with their midwife that it left them wanting to be able to pass on that feeling and connection.




[Yip.](https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/cleared-teacher-feels-let-down-after-a-year-of-hell-facing-indecent-assault-charges/) The teacher shouted at a group of boys who then convinced 3 females to make allegations against him. He was fired within 24 hours and vilified in the community before the trail shows the girls admitting to having made it all up. He still isn't teaching, probably never will again. I was looking at going into teaching with my Science degree because I looked up to my science teaches and wanted to be like them, but there are stories like this and [others like it](http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/life/98942078/being-a-male-teacher-was-my-dream--until-i-was-falsely-accused) that I steer clear and work with charities instead.


Damn, this thread is a fucking shit show.


That's was OPs goal.


I think there has been a push for both more male teachers, as well as more Maori teachers. Men generally don't want to be teachers, and mean generally really don't want to be primary school teachers lmao. Nonetheless, another metric I'd like to add is the gender ratio of school administration, because I'm willing to bet just through what I've seen (purely anecdotal) most school principals are male, even though overwhelmingly teacher population is female.


>I think there has been a push for both more male teachers, as well as more Maori teachers. Men generally don't want to be teachers, and mean generally really don't want to be primary school teachers lmao. A look at the MoE's last few Teacher supply strategy updates has no mention of gender specific initiatives but does has specific initiatives for Māori. [Teacher supply stretegy for 2022](https://www.education.govt.nz/news/teacher-supply-for-the-2022-school-year-update/) >Nonetheless, another metric I'd like to add is the gender ratio of school administration, because I'm willing to bet just through what I've seen (purely anecdotal) most school principals are male, even though overwhelmingly teacher population is female. You'd be incorrect as of ~2016. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/female-school-principals-finally-overtake-males-in-nz-schools/QFX2RJ5GKYCHNR6ZF5SMEZJAP4/


The current numbers are 1354 female and 1097 male principals according to: https://www.educationcounts.govt.nz/statistics/teacher-numbers In the PowerBI dashboard first select _Gender_ in the top right, then _Role_ -> _Group Designation Description_ -> _Principal_ That's 55% female, 45% male, which given teachers as a whole are more heavily skewed female, the Principal position does buck the trend a bit.


Oh shit! Yep, than was purely anecdotal!


It was definitely the case for me anecdotally too. I never had a female Principal.


Men want to be primary teachers. About 4 for every 30 women in training. Yet about 1 of these four actually get hired. And struggle at that. And they are probably you "PE Teacher" type who "get" to take all the sport (and if you're not the PE type you'll probably "get" to do it anyway) Science or technology specialist? You *might* get a look in. Fixed term. Maybe. Don't be too disappointed when a female with a lot less experience who is yet *another* literacy "specialist" gets the role though. (Their mum probably know the principal). Men find it hard to get hired. Men find it harder to move forward in a team of 20 women. Most principals are women and have been for a long time.


This sort of thing makes me laugh. Not you and not that boys are failing school, just the fact that we care so much about equality and equal representation of genders for such stupid reasons. Full disclaimer, I'm male. So it's not like I've experience being discriminated against for being a woman. That being said, when I entered the workforce I struggled to find a job and ended up getting the advice from an HR consultant to remove my middle name from my CV (Māori). It didn't take too long after that to get a job. Point being I know discrimination exists when hiring. And I find that extremely pathetic as well. I have my own company, a quick Google search says globally that around 30% of the industry was female in 2015 and last year about 44%. My team is exactly 50/50, and not because I was trying to hit a quota but because everyone of these people were the best possible candidate for me to hire. I imagine that in the MoE it'd be a lot harder to find males to fill a role and for the roles in sports like Rugby, specifically if you're after a lot of experience I'd imagine you'd be hard pressed to find women. Why does gender matter? Shouldn't we hire the best person for the job regardless?


You will see a much higher ratio of male teachers at private male schools than co-Ed public too. It would interesting to see the comparison of education success of boys in private co-Ed vs single sex/ majority single sex boys schools to tertiary education. There is USA or global research saying boys in single sex class perform better than co-ed but girls there is no significance. Does sex of teacher matter in this too or the class gender?


>At primary level it's just 16%. What percentage of primary principals are male?


pretty sure the 100 level massey students had a 4:1 girl to boy ratio this year - insane


Remind me why we have female-only scholarships for University when women now significantly outnumber men? Smells like discrimination to me


It's all woke bullshit. Best one for the job, life is a business.


>Boys are falling further behind, educators say, and nobody seems to care > >All of this seems to translate into significantly fewer men than women attending university. Wait until you see how many scholarships there are for women and how many there are for men.


We should be asking kids about their experience of sexism. My 14 year old son and at least some of his male friends are very clear that they experience sexism from the teachers. Much more punishments and less support. I spoke to his principal once after all the boys were threatened about their behavior when some boys got in a large fight. The boys were all pulled out of class and told off en masse. They were also told that any boys causing a problem at upcoming school camp would be sent home, indicating a higher expectation due to them simply being boys. My son loves to teach other kids but I very much doubt he would have any interest in being a teacher. I'd have a hard time suggesting that to him as a pathway as well.


I've been surprised at the vitriol that even bringing this issue up has caused. I have been call everything from a incel to a pedo enabler and one DM that thought I need to be raped by a horse. Quite eye opening how damaged some people views of the world are. In better news I have blocked a couple of users which should make my future reddit experience a bit more enjoyable.


I'm sorry to hear that. Obviously the bulk of people don't agree with that kind of behavior but pointing out we don't take care of men well enough will trigger a minority. Thanks for your post though. Well considered and valuable to human rights in NZ.


At my son's school there is ZERO male teachers. It's the only thing I don't like about it.


They would need to lift pay to attract more men to the profession so the gender imbalance should definitely be a focus - it’s one way of combatting historic gender pay inequality. I believe a reason why there isn’t concern about male education outcomes is because it doesn’t result in men being paid less/being less successful compared to women. Women have better education and still end up worse off.


And yet despite the high numbers of females in teaching, there is still a majority of male principals in secondary schools. This indicates to me that males are less likely to elect to become teachers, but those who do choose to join the profession have a greater likelihood of being promoted to senior leadership in the secondary school setting. You can also see this in the stats you've quoted where a higher proportion of males is seen in leadership at the ministry then is reflected in the (lesser paid) work as kaiako.


Principals are typically those that have been in the job for a long time. The Principals of today are the graduating class of 20-30 years ago.


Yup, as they reach retiring age, you will see the vacuum filled by female principals simply because the percentage of male teachers is so low. Bet there won't be any outcry of gender inequality related to the relative non-existence of male teachers though when it rolls around. EDIT: As of 2016, females officially outnumber males as school principals, 55% female to 45% male. Source: [https://www.educationcounts.govt.nz/statistics/teacher-numbers](https://www.educationcounts.govt.nz/statistics/teacher-numbers) To get accurate numbers, select Gender in the top right, then Role -> Group Designation Description -> Principal


I think that we should fight sexism within an industry, but gender targets and encouraging specific genders to go into specific roles is a waste of time. People are intelligent and capable of deciding what they want to do with their lives. I don't care that 88% of sewage cleaners are men. Or that 75% of teachers are women. What matters is the sexism and pay that people encounter while in that career. Teachers deserve to get paid more, men shouldn't have to deal with sexism in a teaching roll. (or women in STEM) But that isn't going to be fixed with every job in the world having an exact 50:50 gender split.


Because the people pushing it don't actually care, it's soley for optics


I’m sure this will go down like a lead balloon but for the sake of balance. Women are ‘typically’ considerably physically weaker than men. Some of the imbalance towards trades can be reconciled when considering that a reasonable proportion of the female population would have a really hard time in a heavy machinery role. I’m not suggesting that this explains 100% of the variance, but that men have a greater range of options. Also having a trade doesn’t mean you had less educational success than someone with a bachelors degree. In many cases from a financial standpoint trade qualifications provide significantly better outcomes in both the short and long term.


As far as male teachers are concerned......I have a close personal male friend who WAS a teacher. He absolutely loved teaching and was damn good at it. He taught at our neighbourhood school and all three of our kids were taught by him. He doesn't have a single kid he taught that has a bad word to say about him. Brilliant eh? Why on earth would he stop teaching? Well, inappropriate touching, sounds bad doesn't it. He stood behind an upset and stressed out child, my son, and gently massaged his shoulders until he calmed down. That was a huge no-no. He was indirectly accused of abuse and pushed out of teaching. This was in the 90s. Fast forward to today, in my granddaughters school there are maybe two male teachers....actually scratch that, one. My ex teacher friend puts it down to the men being extremely concerned by a possible sexual abuse accusation. He says that after talking to other male friends of his who have quit teaching for precisely that reason.


If you're smart enough to gather this data then you already know the answer.


I remember a discussion saying that we needed to improve education for girls at schools. I asked why specifically girls. Why not try lift the education system up in general which includes boys and girls? I got downvoted to oblivion and called sexist.


This is quite the complex question you're asking. I guess to begin we mostly target boards and leadership teams because we know historically women have been blocked from moving upwards in management, the glass ceiling. So we wish to correct this by making it more even. Should there be one more man on the MoE leadership team, maybe, would you be happy if it was swapped around and people were complaining that only 4/11 members are female, I don't know you but many would be angry. I think the second part is regarding STEM and construction (brought up numerous times in the comments) is that they have previously, and still are for construction, seen as things for men. We know that interest and grades for girls go up in STEM in single sex schools. I don't think the same happens for boys and teaching in their single sex schools. Also, I work in construction and I believe the majority of construction companies (remembering that is mostly small operations in NZ) would pick a drop out, druggie, young man over a young woman to do manual labour. I think lastly, I don't see teaching as a female job? I'm Canadian so maybe the culture is different but I don't think this is the reason why men don't get into teaching. Unlike nursing which I would agree is wrongly presented as a female job. Both industries have shortages however and should be welcoming to all. In conclusion, I wrote a long reply based off gut feelings and little else. This was motivated by my disappointment by the number of 'anti-woke' people in the comments. Add in the fact somewhere in my argument that women were disproportionately affected by Covid lay-offs as a reason we should encourage them into more stable employment that STEM offers.


I have never seen teaching as something aimed at women either. Tons of men love to mentor kids, they do it constantly. Seems to be a very recent thing at least in NZ for teaching to be seen as female, it certainly wasn't when I was at school in the 80s and 90s.


Is it a recent thing though? I'm saying it's not a thing at all. I think the lack of male teachers is connected to something else other than perception of who the job is for. Early childhood care is seen as a female job, that's for sure. But years 1-13 I don't think so.


It’s really interesting seeing the way men react to the term toxic masculinity, or even just saying the word ‘patriarchy”. I see it heaps in this sub. Toxic masculinity hurts men. Toxic masculinity is why men have always been expected to work hard, take care of finances, and not cry. It’s not women who made these decisions and created these gender roles. Part of feminism is dismantling these outdated roles, which sounds like you want to do too. Traditionally, women have been in caregiver-type roles. Teaching, nursing, cleaning. While these jobs are much more respected now, it wasn’t always this way. There are less men in these industries because it’s always been seen as a woman’s job, and not high paid or held on high regard. It’s kind of the opposite for things like STEM or trades - women were discouraged from these industries and were supposed to focus on motherhood. These are mens jobs! Women weren’t seen as smart or strong enough. Reminds me of the argument about how real equality should mean men aren’t expected to pay for dinner. While I agree with that sentiment, the reason men are seen as the breadwinners and having to pay for things is because historically, women weren’t allowed to. Women’s fathers were in charge of them completely until they were married, then the husband was in charge. People love to forget or ignore history. I don’t support the fine for not reaching diversity requirements. I don’t like diversity requirements. I think both men and women should be encouraged to get into all industries. But as someone else on here said - if you’re smart enough to pull all these stats and write all this, you’re smart enough to understand why it’s this way. There are other ways to try to empower men than whatever this post is. (Edit to say I’m getting a very interesting combo of downvotes and awards lol)


If you, or anyone else is genuinely interested in why things are this way, it’s an easy google search for traditional gender roles. Easy to understand and explains how and why there are male and female dominated industries.


I've always felt "toxic masculinity" is a kind of poor name for this concept. It seems to imply there's something inherently toxic about masculine people. Of course that's not what it means but I can see why it would put people (mainly men) off reading further into it.


I took a childcare course when I was in highschool. The talks that started about me made me quit as soon as I could; it's not worth going into that area with the stigma attached.


Teachers are mostly women because teaching is/was low-status, low-pay, non-professional work, as most pink collar jobs are. This is a pattern over and over again: take computer programming. It used to have a very large proportion of women when it was a non-professional vocation and a craft rather something with its own university departments. When computer science became a thing and people attempted to organise and professionalise programming along the lines of engineering disciplines, women became more and more a minority as it became higher-status work. (You might say that one of the first steps to professionalise a pink-collar job is to make it male-dominated, in fact) Teaching is no different: if you want men to teach, make teaching higher status. Either way, a preponderance of women in some low-status job is not feminism's fault or responsibility to fix if that is what you are implying. Men did this to themselves by pink-ghettoising certain occupations like teaching or caring.


So by your logic shouldn't ditch diggers and road workers be mostly female also?


It only applies to pink collar jobs. A lot of pink collar jobs are menial or paraprofessional labour done under a professional (often male these days, almost always male in the past) with a similar job: a nurse does routine things for doctors; a legal executive does form filling and paper pushing under lawyers. The case of ditch diggers is actually similar in a way, though. Notice it is mostly Maori, Pasifika and non-Anglo immigrants doing that work...


>not feminism's fault or responsibility to fix I thought the fundamental principle of feminism was equality of the sexes?


OP..... What's the point of all the bullshit that you're pushing here? Are you just some incel trying to create sexist resentment?


Opportunity of equality. Feminism wouldn’t care about male dominated industries, so long as women had equal choice to enter those industries. > the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes. If an industry is male orientated but there were no barriers for a woman to enter, that’s a feminist. (Having two daughters, I’m pretty feminist myself. I’ll approach their attitudes to encouraging them to do whatever they want. If they want to wear pink tutus and dance around to frozen, good for them. If they want to put on pants and get dirty in the mud with the boys and trucks. Also good on them. I’m not going to try and force them into a position of being “boy like” because of some societal pressures of equality. It’s still their choice in the end. If that’s incredibly girly, or tomboy, it’s their idea and having no barriers to being themselves)


It's a little more nuanced than that


I've met men who pulled out of early childcare because people kept on assuming that children weren't safe with a man. For one it ended when the groundskeeper harassed him and forced him to prove that he actually worked there. I've heard terrible stories about men in nursing as well. Sounds like it's a real shit industry if you're male. You just get treated like crap.


Interesting. Of those few men, how many occupy leadership positions. I think you might find data quite interesting.


Only 4 out of the 11 (36%) MoE leadership team are men, is that what you meant?


Couple of main points to make is that, men teaching/caring for children is seen as wrong and inappropriate, why would men want to be perceived as pedophiles/predators, I've met 2 men accused by teen girls of inappropriate behavior who were later cleared of any wrong doing. Second point is I don't think 99% of us care who's treating/serving/helping us as long as they are the best at what they do, I sure as hell would want a doctor who's the best over someone who is only there to make up the numbers so the femenists and woke twats have their gender equality.


You've got the cart before the horse here, there are "feminine" professions, by which I mean professions that society tacitly considers to be for women. Teaching is one of those. Yes, most teachers are female. What about principals? Nursing is another one, early childhood education, carer roles, cleaner roles, etc. Rugby NZ has an issue with toxic masculinity. They'll never be able to fix since Joe Public likes to project his emotional insecurities and hinges his self esteem on the All Blacks.


Male teacher here. Men don't teach because they can't handle the Jandal. Teaching is a job without much status and it is emotionally taxing. Most men go straight to management. Place your outrage elsewhere.


>Teaching is a job without much status That sounds like a problem, hard to solve but perhaps a root cause


Wouldnt that only make sense if we saw men entering the industry only to then leave. To not "handle the jandal" they have to try the jandal first no? I dont have an stats with me so I'm not sure if that's the is the case or not.


This feels like a real cop out to me.... you think the rest of us guys have any 'status'?


Lmao at all the justifications for why this isn't a problem in this thread. The amount of hypocrisy on display whenever someone brings up these stats would be hilarious if it wasn't so fucking sad. But nah complain about toxic masculinity while being surprised that men react negatively to having all of societies problems attached to their identity. Fuck the whole recognizing lived experiences part of intersectionality I guess, they're just whinging babies so lets ignore their feelings and keep using a shitty victim blaming term.


Toxic masculinity is part of the problem you are talking about though. It's the other side of the toxic femininity coin. It's *why* men are mistreated, dehumanized and categorized. People love to bring up the way men are treated but then refuse to acknowledge that it was largely men who created and perpetuated this culture, and largely men who have the power to change it.


The concept is fine, but based on practical attempts at using the current term, coming up with a new way to refer to the idea is in order, I would think.


Because we only care about gender equality when it pertains to women, and only in certain fields they decide.