Really puts a new perspective on things.
By - ORION93
It's probably safe to assume that none of the members of the TVA were affected by the snap right?
The snap only affected the universe where the snap occurred, which is not the TVA, or something.
From Gamora: "The entire time I knew Thanos, he only ever had one goal: To wipe out half *the universe*. If he gets all the Infinity Stones... he can do it with the snap of his fingers, just like that."
TVA governs the universe from the outside. Kind of like how Christof directs the town of Seahaven in The Truman Show
So... the Avengers are Jim Carrey?
Not just the Avengers, ~~but the women and the children too~~ every living being in the entire universe.
As you might be able to guess by my name, I love that subreddit
During the Marvel x DC, the infinity stones didn't work in the DC universe and was just useless
Stuff and things
You’re saying that as if it wasn’t broken down in layman’s terms that the stones wouldn’t affect other universes and that the TVA are not in the universe the snap took place. Pretty cut and dry there with no room for interpretation.
The TVA as a place exists after the heat death of the universe, which is a non-variable eventuality for every universe. Essentially they operate not just at the end of time, but ALL times, every timeline. Infinity Stones can manipulate the universe they spawned from, but if there is no universe to manipulate or if something exists BEYOND the "lifetime" of their original universe, it would be unaffected by the snap.
> The TVA as a place exists after the heat death of the universe
Wait, is that comic canon I'm assuming? If so I really need to do more reading up on them.
The TVA is so confusing. In just gonna follow Loki and trust they will simplify it somewhat. The MCU has been pretty good about that so far.
This sounds right, but can't be. Space and time don't cease to exist at the heat death. It is just so expansive that it is mathematically nothing. The TVA would still be in the fabric of spacetime in a "timeline" if it existed at the heat death.
It must "exist" outside the fabric of spacetime.
Unless you are actually talking about matter reaching lower than its zero point...a different can of worms.
In the comics that issue is handwaved by the existence of the "Null Time Zone" which exists outside of Spacetime. Im sure the MCU will have its own explaination but Mobius' line about "time working different in the TVA" seems to point to a similar explaination.
After the heat death wouldn't work, but after the Big Rip might. Presumably the TVA has access to technology that would let them maintain a bubble of non-infinite-scale-factor spacetime.
I mean that is the power to create universes. In which case, they are the most powerful thing we have seen in the MCU bar none.
That's a good question. I would just assume yes. But have no idea tbh.
I love how it just shows that the infinity stones are involved in a lot of variance events.
For everyone worried about how deterministic things seem to be, just keep in mind that the "time heist" was clearly sanctioned, so the TVA is basically just the in-universe equivalent of Kevin Feige keeping the MCU intact. Otherwise things fall apart real quick.
Episode 1 has me drooling for episode 2. Keep it up, Marvel!
Yes, feige is one of The time keepers
Would've been hilarious if they all were wearing black baseball caps in that cartoon.
And apparently he just had a cameo in a comic. I think he will appear on screen sooner or later.
Stan’s heir apparent for Marvel cameos
Stan liked the spotlight. From what I've seen, Feige isn't quite the same. Stan the man LOOOOVED to talk about his opinions in public. Feige plays things much closer to the chest. Not a slight on Mr. Stan or Mr. Kevin in any way, but they play the media very differently.
Nah, we'll just see Kevin in the "MCU disguise" all the time: ballcap and shades.
It would be a justifiable slight on Stan. He made an effort to make Marvel about him. He intentionally avoided recognizing the effort of the artists he worked with.
No he didn't. Kirby and Ditko were pissed at Stan for giving himself creative credit -- specifically, story credit -- not for failing to give them credit.
Stan never Bob Kane'd them.
I can't hate. Man changed the game, for better or worse.
Recognizing the negative aspects of a person isn't hate, its reality.
He did in a really early marvel movie. He doesn't enjoy being on camera though.
Feige cameo as He Who Remains
Feige, Filoni and ~~favro~~ Favreau are the 3 keepers of the sacred cannon!
Unless you're talking about a large projectile weapon under their care, in which case, yes, cannon.
That would be amazing if Feige were one of them, especially if Stan were still around to be another! Maybe Feige, Sarah Halley Finn and...someone for meme material?
Make the third one Michael Waldron, the writer!
Well he has to be, ever since Stan Lee got recalled by the Watchers.
I’m guessing they were PISSED at him for accepting all those cameo appearances…
I wonder how many times the TVA had to drag in Stan Lee's dimension-hopping ass
This idea makes me smile. "DAMN IT STAN! You've gotta stop doing this.
That would have been a great Stan Lee cameo for this series! Ahh my heart!
Imagine too if he took a page out of Kilgrave's or Doom's book, like in the comics, maybe he took Loki's place and won the Battle of NY, then mind controls everything. And when the TVA calls him out, he can say something like "no I know what I'm doing, seriously, I literally got paid to write this stuff you know".
Didn't they film all of his cameos ahead of time? Couldn't it possibly still be one?
I don't think they made it this far, but I could be wrong. He wasn't in WandaVision or FATWS. I also don't remember him in Far From Home.
Damn think you're right... 😭
Stan: If you got a problem with it, talk to my collaborator.
The One-Above-All: Yo.
Now I'm sad we won't see that absolutely perfect cameo 😭
Should have a wanted poster up at the TVA of Stan Lee.
Wish they would add Stan as a poster or action figure, or some form of media to remember his legacy through the films. It could be a simple magazine cover. I can’t remember if they’ve done that one. I think one of his cameos had him reading a magazine before his reveal.
I actually think we'll learn the TVA is more malicious then that. My gut says the Infinity War / Thanos stuff was allowed to happen because it had no barring on someone's total control and power.
I really do feel like the big reveal of Loki will be that the TVA isn't as good natured as it seems, just keeping reality in check, I guarantee it's more about making sure no one else can claim someone's throne. If reality is on a set course that someone can control, everything goes to plan, there's no x factors. Thanos was never a factor to this person's control, so it was deemed acceptable. But someone (Wanda maybe) could potentially rise up if things were allowed to run rampant.
I really think evil Loki is variant Loki but further in the future, after learning what the TVA is doing and trying to stop them.
I have a feeling he figured out how to damage the pocket of space time the TVA is in and is collecting those "reset charges" in order to set them off in that bubble and erase them completely.
Could be a way for the illuminati to own the stones like they are suppose to.
Yeah i think the weapon they use is even called a “retroactive cannon”. They’re literally retconning stuff in-universe. It’s awesome.
My issue with the time heist being sanctioned is that Loki escaping is part of those events. If Loki didn’t escape then other events would have played out differently. Yet how things played out was “allowed” by the TVA. Doesn’t make sense to me.
Maybe the How isn't that important. They were supposed to get the Stones, use them against Thanos and then put them back, and they did just that. Loki's escape did complicate things a bit, but didn't matter in the end.
That’s a good way to look at it and definitely solves my issue!
Think of this way - Loki's escape isn't part of their plan, but Thanos using the stones and everyone returning five years later IS; for every timeline that has the heist, there's probably at least one timeline completely erased by the TVA after. Obviously the Avengers wouldn't know this. Without other information, my current assumption is that the 2012 timeline and the 2014 timeline, with changes that are too significant to continue on the "approved" course, are just removed by the TVA. Those timelines can no longer go on to the heist, after all. What is "just" and "legal" and "sacred" according to the TVA might well equal "arbitrary" and "authoritarian" and "benefits someone yet unspecified." TVA aren't good guys, they are a bureaucracy upholding a status quo of dubious value.
The difference might be that the Avengers returned to their own timeline. The sacred timeline happened to include a brief trip to another timeline, but it didn't exist much longer than needed before the TVA cleaned it up.
The avengers had respect for the timeline and did everything they could to avoid creating splits, which I imagine the TVA would appreciate. Loki wouldn't have felt the same
Those are good insights! I think another another thing to note is that the Avengers felt a strong responsibility to restore what was changed because they couldn't abide the loss of life implied with collapse, whereas the TVA treats ending entire existences as pruning a plant. They are careful with time, but not with life.
So your point actually cleared this out to me... the avengers failed to get the tesseract from 2012, but Loki took it and that is an issue since he wasn't planning on returning it and that would complicate the timeline. Whereas every other stone was returned back to its timeline by Steve. And that's why time heist was okay.
And Loki was an abhorrence. Wow, i took so long to get that!
> for every timeline that has the heist, there's probably at least one timeline completely erased by the TVA after.
Probably 14,000,604 timelines?
Technically things still fall apart. Why is 2014 Gamora allowed to run around in the current timeline?
Real answer: because the writers hadn’t fully thought of the tva when they brought past-Gamora to the present
In-universe answer: because the time-keepers decided that past-Gamora being in the present should happen
A perfect writing tool.
“The three space lizards allowed it to happen.”
"The space lizards thought it kept Peter Quill grounded."
“A lizard did it.”
Its all part of ~~gods~~ the time keepers divine plan. They work in mysterious ways.
alternate answer: going forwards in time doesn't create alternate timelines by breaking causality, so it's fine.
"The space lizards kinda forgot Gamora was doing that"
because its part of the sanctioned time line. remember messing with time lines is ok when its sanctioned and supposed to happen.
definitely smells like set up for Loki to tear them down for their hypocrisy
Loki is coming for the canon cops, and I'm ready for it.
Loki: "Daredevil isn't in the sacred timeline? That's absurd! Looks like I'll have to take matters into my own hands now."
But remember what they said, Loki’s only purpose is to help others do better. Loki, no matter what, will revert to being a mischievous individual. Gamora is good and played her part in defeating Thanos. Though she crossed timelines, she’s likely not going to start some type of cosmic chaos that threatens life.
Maybe her presence isn't enough to form a multiverse-threatening divergent branch. Seems to me like the TVA doesn't prune *everything,* just the biggest troublemakers.
I just had a thought in my head: are the stones worthless in the wrong reality and/or timeline, or just in the TVA?
Depending on the answer, you could just swap a Mind Stone or something and suddenly Thanos makes a crack about aiming for the head, snaps...and then just **snaps** when nothing happens.
just the tva. it appears to exist outside of time in its own "bubble". remember loki used the tesseract to create the variant to begin with.
it really sets the stage for just how powerful they really are and episode one is pretty much loki coming to terms with this and seeing this as a new opportunity for power.
Well the stones in Endgame were technically from another timeline, and they worked.
They did, but you can’t use magic in the tva
It hasn't been established yet in the MCU, but in the comics they're definitely useless in the wrong reality. Ex. there was a DC/Marvel crossover (I wanna say in the 90s?) where Darkseid got the Infinity Gauntlet with all the stones, but it did nothing for him because it wasn't the stones' reality.
EDIT - link: https://i.redd.it/7jganobhquf21.jpg
What I thought as I watched was "Well they brought Loki out of that variant timeline and they "deleted" that timeline, I assume the stone stops working once it's origin timeline is deleted"
Exactly. It's a brilliant narrative mechanic actually.
But the presence of at least two time stones in the drawer would suggest that some of the 14,000,605 possibilities Dr. Strange experienced were unsanctioned?
Probably a lot, including some that he saw and some he didn’t. I’m intrigued by the concept of all these almost timelines that go nowhere. A lot of possibility there.
It actually makes very little sense, Loki shouldn’t have escaped if the event was predicted and approved.
I’m assuming this was intentional to make the point that the TVA isn’t as all-knowing as they seem?
I feel like people quite a few people don't understand that plot point.
Yeah. I see it as only doing two things:
1). Reinforcing the notion of a mulitverse and variant people/objects.
2). Showing us that magic doesn't work in the TVA regardless of its power level.
That's really it.
Ya it’s not discrediting the power of the stones they just don’t work in the TVA i don’t get why people can’t understand that
It is sorta concerning from an Ancient One standpoint. Since she basically points out that stealing the stones from a timeline fucks it. So basically they are collecting stones from fucked timelines...so these are really like mementos of trillions of beings wiped out of existence by resetting their timeline.
TVA is apparently unaffected by collecting these things that shouldn't exist too.
So, in the little explanation cartoon Loki watches, when they take the Variant Bow-tie guy, and hit reset, the timeline disappeared, but more importantly there was a new Bow-tie guy continuing as he should have, while the TVA took the Variant.
That suggests to me that the TVA is like a timeline janitorial service. They're not turning back time on the Variant themselves, but turning back the entire timeline and taking that new variant and atomizing it.
What that means for those infinity stones: those are all duplicates of other stones.
Which kind of gets you to the morality of killing clones.
Not something altogether settled in sci-fi and we have an example of a "benevolent organization" that does it by the trillions.
TVA are going to be the bad guys for sure. All the propaganda in the offices lead me to believe that. Also, the time keepers are taking free will away from people so they live the lives they dictate. Loki or Loki’s will have a problem with this and such is why they are chasing a Loki
That's my series pet theory.
In Loki's conversation with Mobius he goes on a monologue about people needing a God-King because free choice is a burden.
Then he suddenly finds out that everyone in the sacred timeline has no free choice. Everything is predetermined.
This story, in my theory, ends with Loki helping to dismantle the TVA and giving true free will to the timeline which eventually spins out of control and spurs the Multiverse of Madness.
MCU is sooooooooooo goood!
I think they are chasing the same Loki… just a future version of him…
Loki is pretending to cooperate so he can access info and get enough timeline eraser bombs (sorry, I forgot the name) to destroy the sacred timeline and “recover” his free will…
And the result of that would be… a lot more of Marvel movies…
my theory is that the TVA will be viewed as bad guys but itll end up as a double swerve and show they are doing bad things in order to keep things good, because unleashing the multiverse and starting interdimensional/time wars will be cause even more pain and suffering in unforeseen ways. bad guys doing bad things to keep things from getting even worse sorta deal, but our heros will not see the forest for the trees until its to late and the multiverse gets out of hand.
At least from the peek we've been given, it isn't so much taking away free will as it is violently discouraging the specific free will that may lead to undesired interdimensional war. Like if the punishment for murder was that someone went back in time and the murderer was "reprogrammed" not to want to murder.
In any case, we live in a deterministic universe and therefore any illusion of free will is simply an artifact of consciousness. You are a self-replicating meat machine and your entire existence was determined at the moment of the big bang.
It wasn’t like that in the MCU in the beginning the cartoon stated that. They chose to make a sacred timeline to maybe prevent or maybe not prevent another multiverse war. What they are going to show, is that you can’t escape the multiverse and variant timelines, they are still happening and when there’s a deviation from the sacred timeline they reset it. Something that looking from the outside looking in, is wrong because you don’t know what those other universes will do. So the multiverse will always stray away from the sacred timeline because it’s not the natural state of things in the universe
If you were stating what you said as a real world theory. I mean come on dude you believe in predetermined fate?
Fate is a romanticized word. Determinism is a natural consequence of cause and effect and the only reason it’s not seen as fact is because of sentimentality and peoples incessant need to feel in control of something/anything. At the same time it’s an idea that should be noted, accepted and then discarded because it doesn’t change anything at all.
DEVS, is that you?
Underrated show. Shame it go so little attention.
The empire did nothing wrong.
Are those duplicates of other stones, or are those the *originals* and the timelines the TVA reset are filled with the duplicates?
Have you heard of the Ship of Theseus?
I require elaboration.
The Ship of Theseus is an artifact in a museum. Over time, its planks of wood rot and are replaced with new planks. When no original plank remains is it still the Ship of Theseus? When does it stop being the Ship of Theseus?
If someone keeps the replaced planks and eventually puts them together into a complete ship, which one is the Ship of Theseus? Do you have two?
I think when they reset the timeline those things are replaced. The person and stone will be in the reset timeline leaving the displaced variant and there stone no place in the timeline. So the timelines are fine but the stone is kept at tva and besides loki it seems most variants are erased from existence.
I have a feeling that "reseting" the timeline just outright destroys it. It's like one of those words meant to make a horrific act sound more sanitized. Like when Loki calls himself a "liberator" when he really means the other thing. There's a beat where Loki is trying to see what the reset charge does, but he and the camera are forced to look away.
Also, it’s a time pun
Also "charge" just sounds like it's a bomb. I wouldn't be surprised if they're just blowing up realities left and right
Which makes them war trophies.
Since otherwise they wouldn't exist. He has the sole evidence of trillions of "variants" wiped.
Every green stone in there is a marker of a timeline wiped. It obviously could be disintegrated like other variants, but they keep them around for dramatic effect.
Those “fucked timelines” don’t exist anymore... that’s the entire point.
Infinity Stones draw power from the timeline. The TVA comes in and captures “variants” and then resets the timeline thus removing the branch. The infinity stones are now variants of themselves and thus have no power because the branch they are from was clipped.
It's a nice thought, but the Collector said
*"Before creation itself, there were six singularities. Then the universe exploded into existence, and the remnants of these systems were forged into concentrated ingots... Infinity Stones."*
Technically they existed "before" time (let's not even get into what that means...it's a mess). But, that should mean they are tied to universes and not timelines in terms of being able to be used. Simply lopping off a timeline shouldn't kill the power...it would kill the existence of that stone clone.
So, they shouldn't actually exist anymore. So they can only exist by being outside of existence... at the TVA...which also shouldn't exist.
There is only meant to be *one* timeline. I'm not sure what happened to the alternate timeline the Avengers went back to, maybe it's the one timeline that was allowed to continue alongside the old one, but from the way they spoke, it would have been "reset" back to the main timeline.
Meaning she was completely unaware her timeline wasn't even allowed to exist. As were the Avengers.
It's getting a little messy, honestly. Stating there can only be one timeline, when they also stated the Avengers were supposed to go and branch off another timeline. Though I'm invested.
I mean it is more than messy, it is three cosmic beings (supposedly, I don't trust anything in this show yet) who have decided that they are the final arbiters of the true timeline. So they get to kill trillions of beings they have determined to be "clones" to preserve a supposedly sacred timeline.
How are they any better than Thanos?
You also wonder with 3 if they take a vote. You end up in a Minority Report situation. Awkward.
I mean it's understandable that they want to avoid a giant war that would wind up with the death of many timelines, but yeah, it's a Minority Report situation. The solution is worse than the alternative because instead of stopping a multiverse war and a lot of *potential* death by intervening when it happens, they're killing off variants constantly in order to preserve the timeline the way they feel it should be flowing.
Maybe there's less death involved than with a multiverse war, but it doesn't sound "better" so much as "more tidy".
It's still hella fucked up. Especially when you see they evaporate variants just for not grabbing tickets, so they clearly don't care about them at all.
Tidy seems like their aesthetic and operation MO anyway, look at how their offices are organized and structured as a bureaucracy.
I never like time travel shenanigans in my movies and shows because it always gets messy. I’ll still watch and love the show. And maybe my vague questions and concerns will be resolved by the end.
I think time travel is too interesting to avoid when it's fitting, but yeah... it gets messy and sometimes ruins the plot.
By returning the stones, Steve is deleting the branched timeline that was created off the “one true” timeline. I’m wondering what the TVA’s stance is on the timeline that Steve decided to stay in.
But is he? If they're returning the stones the moment they're removed from that timeline, then they're simply popping back in where they were, leaving them in the care of people like the Ancient One or back in the Tesseract or whatever, then fucking off, leaving certain events still changed. Like Steve still fought Steve in Loki's timeline.
What happens to it then?
That’s a good point. We don’t really know yet how malleable the timeline is when changes happen. The agents mention a redline… I’m interpreting that as when little changes pile up to the point where the timeline can’t autocorrect and so it branches. Taking a stone is a major change and probably causes a redline immediately, where as other things can probably be ignored or explained away (e.g. Steve assuming the other Steve was actually Loki in disguise).
Like Hulk said if you travel to the past that past becomes your present and your future becomes your past. It is a little complex but in the "Sacred Timeline" Steve and the avengers defeated Loki and everything happened as it happened. Then they did the time travel in Endgame. Both things happened. From the TVA's perspective the "Sacred timeline" has all these events in roughly the order we the audience experienced them.
The stones the TVA have are stones that someone somehow managed to take from the place they needed to be. If the TVA had not interfered The Stones would not have been where they needed to be for all the events to transpire as they did. That is Thanos finding them and The Avengers using them and so on.
So had Steve not returned the stones the TVA would have arrested that Steve, Judged him and then reset the timeline with a new Steve that would return the stones.
The "timeline" that the Avengers visit in Endgame is hard to crack though but if I were Steve I would travel to before they arrive to get all the stones, wait for them to show up, and then say "Hey guys we did it here are all the stones no need to take them from this timeline or anything just make sure you send me back here with them when you are done."
Then the Avengers have the stones they need, The timeline they visit remains identical to and folds back into the "sacred timeline" while Steve goes to live out the rest of his life with Sharon.
Now this would mean that in the sacred timeline the same events play out a few times because of time travel. First loki gets arrested after avengers and then he goes on to do what he does until he is killed by Thanos. Then he is visited in his past by the Avengers and he lives out a differnt turn of events.
First Thanos does the snap and then gets his head chopped off. Then later he is visited in his past by his daughter and learns of time travel, goes to the future and is ultimately killed again there.
First Steve is frozen in Ice then he thaws, fights Loki, finds Bucky, fights Tony, Fights Thanos, goes back in time, fights Thanos more Then goes back into the past and then lives out his life with Sharon.
From the TVA standpoint all these events happened in the order they happened because to them time is not linear. And they understand that it is all about from whose perspective you are measuring time.
They’d likely not care. Steve doesn’t alter the timeline enough to make an issue and once he leaves they probably reset it. Steve himself isn’t a variant (he’s from the prime universe).
Because they were created for this purpose and only this. They aren't alive in the normal sense. They're like robots, more than organic beings.
It also ties in with the comics where the Stones only have power in the universe they were created in. That scene basically shows that the TVA operates outside the main MCU universe. Thus the stones are really just literal stones in the TVA.
It kinda has to be. If it existed in the universe it would experience time. If it experienced time it would be causing as many variants as it destroyed. The only way they can reduce timeline entropy is by being outside the system.
I mean you could say it is "in" the universe but in some bubble...but that isn't really in the universe either, it is a pocket universe.
That was exactly how I took it.
It's not to discredit the stones, its to show just how powerful the TVA really is. Hence why the next line is "Is this the greatest power in the universe?"
"Power" is a relative term here though. They are powerful within the TVA itself. Outside of it they are more vulnerable.
It's sort of like the Train Man in the Matrix. In his pocket universe he's a god, but outside of it he's vulnerable.
The Infinity Gems are similar to this in the comics. They only work in their respective universes. If you take the stones to an alternate Marvel U, they're powerless since they're tied to their particular reality.
greater power exists in the universe, took 3 phases just to get to cosmic paperweights
It's shows Loki just how powerless he is to them. To him, the tesseract was the most powerful thing in the entire universe to him, and just to have versions of it and other infinity stones used as paperweights and junk makes him rethink so many of his values and goals, long and short term.
You hit the nail
Infinity stones only work in their respective universes, so I'm just assuming the TVA exists outside of all other universes
I still take it as something of a discredit of the infinity stones, but less to their power and more to their relevance outside of the timeline, specifically to show Loki that the cause he was fighting for is now totally irrelevant. His life has happened without him and (for) now he can do nothing but watch the things that he once dreamed of be reduced to props in a bureaucratic farce.
All of Marvel Twitter
I get It very easy just the stones dosent work in the TVA because Is out of Time.
People keep saying this but we don't know that. All we know is that they don't work in the TVA and you can assume it's because of the same reason Loki's powers don't work - no magic exists in the TVA and the stones are magic.
Althought true that we don't know that in the MCU, in the comics, the TVA exists in a place called Null-Time Zone, where time is not a thing, and that makes any stones from any universe useless, because the fabric of spacetime they control doesn't exists there.
It's possible that like in the comics, the TVA is actually not that good at what it does. But because they exists outside of time, they easily can give the impression that they are all powerfull and omniscient, even if it's far from the truth.
I expect that we will get a twist in a similar vein in the MCU.
Yeah, it really seems like the TVA wants to appear truly omnipotent but they’re only *effectively* omnipotent. They can go anywhere at anytime and have some really powerful tools, but they also fall for simple tricks and can be killed fairly easily.
it’s at least clear they’re not all powerful because alt-Loki seems to be consistently kicking their ass
Yeah that's a good point that is not discussed much, thanks. We already SAW that a gasoline fire can take them out outside of the TVA, so it's safe to assume that they aren't exactly powerfull when not in their own dimension.
Thank you for pointing that out, as few others are. The all powerful guys getting cooked while outside their bubble, plus whatever else evil variant “Loki” has been doing to them.
Shows they aren’t invincible and omnipresent as they claim/think they are.
I don't understand how there are people who are actually legit angry about this.
I felt it was an interesting story point, but having them mean nothing and basically saying "yeah everything is already pre-determined and we know what happens" kind of minimizes everything that's happened so far and what will happen, almost as if there are no stakes because whatever is destined to happen *will* happen no matter what with nothing out there that can change it.
As far as we know *now*. The TVA could be making it all up. I think its a little fishy that all the time heist stuff was *supposed* to happen but loki grabbing the teseract wasnt. I think they are just trying to get him on the hook
My prediction for the next phase or two: TVA is totalitarian in maintaining the single timeline, for the benefit of one person or group of people (Kang?). Variant timelines are pruned so that the only timeline that exists leads to the eventual rise and dominance of said entity (Kang the Conqueror, or other).
Also, if it wasn't meant for Loki to get the Tesseract, Ant Man and Iron Man would also be variants, because they made it happen by dropping the Tesserac, and by their logic, that is out of the Sacred Time Line.
I'm pretty sure they only care about anomalies that are big enough to warrant their presence. Like Loki bamf'ing away with the Tesseract causes a much larger ripple, deviation, whatever word they used, than Scott and Tony causing the Tesseract to just fall out of the suitcase.
EDIT: we see this behavior from them a little with the scene where the TVA crew met the variant Loki and one of them scanned something and gave a reading, the other guy said to just burn it because it's not worth the paperwork.
Well about your edit, they did try to reset it even if it was small change, why didn’t they reset them dropping it?
Yeah but if it never fell out of the suitcase than wouldn’t Scott and Tony have taken the tesseract in 2012? As in Steve and Tony going to the 70s shouldn’t have happened so that means Steve, Tony, possibly Howard, Hank, and the lady who was looking for Steve are all variants as well right? So how was that not a big enough change?
But didn’t the intro video show is that like a guy being late for work was warrant enough to be a variant?
And if Loki wasn't supposed to get the tesseract, then Tony and Steve would be variants since they went to the 70s after Loki stole it.
Maybe Loki wasn’t supposed to get the tesseract, maybe it was supposed to be Thor. In the correct timely, Tony knowing he can’t just take on Thor bails out of the mission and they go to the 70’s anyway.
I've got a feeling that whatever happens in Loki will dissolve the TVA leading to the Multiverse of Madness.
Agreed. I think in the end Loki wants to destroy the TVA to give everyone their free will and not be controlled by a bureaucracy controlled by space lizards. Which will then cause all of this madness. That’s when Kang gets involved. I semi think Kang is the “man behind the curtain” for the TVA
Agreed. The single timeline that is maintained is the one that leads to his rise to power.
Those stones only mean nothing because the particular reality those ones came from no longer exist.
I think it’s a little different than that - the stones don’t work outside their reality, not exclusively if their reality is gone. For example, once the multiverse opens up, the sacred timeline Avengers won’t be able to import infinity stones from other universes and use them, but if they go back to the stones’ timeline, the stones will work again in that reality.
I think we agree. I just worded it somewhat poorly and left out the bit about them not working while in the TVA or outside of their reality. Just meant they mean nothing because as far as we know the reality that came from doesn't exist and they can't be returned. So for now they make for neat paperweights.
All good! Makes sense.
I don't believe there was ever anything that established that a stone stops working if its reality is gone.
As I understand it: In the comics, yes. In the movies, no.
There was. It’s this episode
The scene shows also us that the tva is very arrogant, disregarding and dogmatic. And I wouldn't be surprised if rama-tut, Kang and immortus (plus iron lad maybe) are Rogue agents of the tva.
Existentialism and determinism are nothing new...
It doesn't matter if free will is real or not, because you can't see the future.
For us sure. But it's guaranteed in the MCU now that it's predetermined.
Only in the scope of this particular show. You don’t think about what Loki is doing when watching Falcon and WS you’re invested to what will happen with them from their narrative.
I think there is a major difference between predestination and foreknowledge. Predestination Is the world is created and all your choices are dictated for you there is no free will. But if that were true, there could be no variants. The second is foreknowledge, which is the world is created and everyone makes their own choices but the TVA who exists outside of time, can see what choices we make and therefore any deviations from those choices we naturally make are the variants. Thus there is still free will, and the actions still have consequences, the TVA just happens to already know what those choices and consequences are and are protecting those choices and consequences.
The biggest question though is that if that foreknowledge prevents anyone from making a decision that wasn't "meant" to happen, is that truly free will? I think it all comes down to whether you think free will is just the ability to take a different action, or if it also includes the consequences both good and bad of that action.
Like if I was told I had the option to either call in sick or just go to work, but every time I call in my actions are undone till I decide to go to work, I wouldn't say it was free will. I would say I was given a path I needed to take with the illusion of free will.
Edit: Also, to be clear, I believe that foreknowledge is free will. However I believe that use of foreknowledge to prevent other decisions is not free will.
That separate issue is an interesting point. It’s almost both right. Because of the characters who originally make the decision it is free will, but for the variants it’s not.
I think that is a point that will be somewhat relevent in the show. They've already spent a couple of minutes on the concept of free will between Loki and Mobius, and I think that this discution was not just random talk.
I think that the whole concept of free will and its meaning will play a part in the themes and events of the show.
The way i see it in your example you still have free will. It's just the consequence for your "call in" decision is to be removed from the universe. Just because the TVA is going around clipping timelines short doesn't mean that decisions weren't made. You have free will in this scenario. There is just a stronger will turning the consequences of your free will into erasure.
It's been one episode! They only people who have said that are the TVA who clearly have an agenda of their own that we don't know about yet. Why do so many people assume we have the full story already?
Exactly. The infinity stones are sort of a side show to the real issue, which is that predetermination of the three time gods retroactively removes all the stakes from the previous 23 movies and 2 shows. Every character's struggles were irrelevant because there was only one outcome.
I might have this wrong, but isn’t it a little similar to when Doctor Strange uses the time stone? He said that he watched a whole bunch of futures where the wrong decisions were made and the Avengers lost. We see the timeline where the Avengers win, so wouldn’t every choice that has been made from that point been predetermined? Like every character also has the opportunity to make a different choice, but because we are watching the one where they win, they make the correct choice
Reminds me of [The Gods Must Be Crazy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gods_Must_Be_Crazy) and cargo cults.
Basically a soda bottle ended up with some hunter gatherers. An everyday mundane object ended up as a quintessential object of power for them. Conflict broke out and one of them decided to get rid of it.
With Loki ending up as a TVA agent, it's like a barbarian chief that ended up going through a time portal and becoming an FBI agent
There is actually a book where this kind of happens.
You should try out the Fall and Rise of the Dodo. A very good vacation book :)
People are acting like the time keepers told US that our reality is predetermined. It’s like some weird fans are having an existential crisis or something. How hard is it to comprehend that the TVA is just that important/powerful. I thought it was pretty simple ancient powerful beings who saw what could happen if they left things unchecked constantly control and maintain a particular flow of time and reality in order to keep things from getting out of hand as they were before. I see it more like they can constantly see what is happening and intervene if they see a potential branching issue or something that would eventually lead to something worse. Does that mean allowing certain bad things to happen? Yes. People to die? Yes. But you can see what can happen if someone does something they aren’t supposed to do or something, no matter how small, that might lead to a chain of events that sets off the end of everything. What’s the issue here
The issue is that there’s ultimately no peril in the previous movies because in reality the timekeepers were deciding the outcome. I think most people would prefer the characters we know to have control over their destiny. It’s not logically inconsistent or anything, it’s just that having an omnipotent God create a deterministic universe kind of sucks.
To be fair, there are plenty of philosophical problems with an infinite multiverse too. Or with our own universe for that matter.
It doesn’t matter if the universe is deterministic if you can’t predict the outcome. There is no real way for the Timekeepers to prove they are deciding the outcome. The only reason they know Loki’s future is because they’re past that point in the sacred timeline
It’s implied that they’re deciding the outcome by destroying every branch that differs from it.
Now here's a few things that I can't wrap my head around.
The animated TVA ad shows the time cops arresting the time variant and returning them to the exact moment at which the "rogue" time branch was created, in order to undo this "rogue" timeline.
And then we see them visitng different "rogue" timelines, placing the bomb thingy (which I guess resets things to the way they were) and leave. Not exactly as illustrated in the animation, but given that the variant in that case wasn't caught, we can ignore it.
Now when they did this in 2012 Loki's case, they took him as well as the teserract. Why not just keep them both there if the bomb thingy is supposed to fix everything anyway?
If the bomb thingy doesn't erase the rogue time branch, doesn't that mean that all branches from which those paperweight infinity stones came from are fucked until the stones are put back in place?
My theory is the bomb thingy is a legit bomb, like one that destroys that entire divergent universe. This is going to be the dark side of the TVA that we learn later - when Owen Wilson was talking to the little French girl, he does it knowing he’s about to bomb her whole reality.
They took Loki and the tesseract because Loki needed to stand trial and the space stone needed to be put in a drawer. If these bombs are destroying whole realities, thats another reason why infinity stones are trivial to them.
Because Loki has to go to trial to face his crimes. Not to mention him remaining there would open a new "branch", something the TVA doesnt want. So by taking him OUT of that branch, and resetting time to before he showed up, keeps that timeline in tact.
As soon as the dust settled from Endgame, I knew there would be a moment where we’re shown that the infinity stones aren’t as powerful as they have been told.
There was always going to be that “oh you mean the infinity stones? Hahaha. Those old things?” Sort of moment, and I said out loud “ah there it is” during that scene.
I mean they are still ridiculously powerful. It's just that wherever TVA HQ is located, they don't work, just like literally any magical or cosmic power it seems
That’s what I saw it as; the TVA is in its own dimension or pocket universe. The Infinity Stones were tied into creation of the main MCU universe thus have power over it. But in the TVA they are not connected thus have no power.
Their power has always been in question though. Look at the power stone in GotG vs Infinity War. It took all the guardians barely holding it together to use it to obliterate Ronan, and then Iron Man could walk away from a direct attack from an extremely powerful celestial being, regardless of how good his armor was. Thanos was able to focus it into a beam directly into Tony, and he wasn’t immediately vaporized.
The time stone is supposedly an extremely powerful artifact. Why couldn’t Doctor Strange use it to go back in time before Thanos woke up and stop Quill from attacking him and waking him up?
We still don’t even know what the soul stone does.
I can’t wait to see where this show goes.
Because that wouldn’t have resulted in their win. Likely a pretty important piece to them winning in the long run is the stones being destroyed so another Thanos doesn’t just come along in x number of years.
But, also, that wasn’t meant to happen. The Avengers’ time traveling and the stones being destroyed and all that jazz was meant to happen. If strange had tried to go back in time like that, the TVA would’ve stepped in and stopped him because he’s not supposed to do that.
Which *could* have been a future he saw, or maybe not if the TVA is outside the bounds of the “futures” he saw (technically not real futures since, again, the TVA would’ve stopped any of them that weren’t Endgame since they weren’t supposed to happen)
In my view Thanos isn’t trying to kill any of the avengers, he clearly could have at many points but didn’t give it his all. The only ones he killed were necessary to get the soul and mind stones. He wasn’t using the power stone to its full potential and I assume using the time stone would allow Thanos the opportunity to seize it without guaranteeing iron man’s survival. Not sure Strange using the time stone could allow him to stop 4 stone Thanos.
This poster is so good.
I’m not sure but wouldn’t thanos theoretically be able to snap away the TVA if he as variant got the gauntlet? Like cant the gauntlet with the stones make it so he creates the new main timeline?
Magic doesn't work in the TVA. Because the tesseract didn't work it's safe to assume none of the other stones worked either.
But if the TVA is created by an event in the past or future of the sacred timeline and Thanos straight up deletes the whole timeline then would they not never exist to set up the tva in the first place? They may have found a technological way to create a realm outside the governance of the stones, but they still had to find/create it at some point and if that doesn’t happen then no TVA.
See that’s what I’m thinking. Which is why I find it weird that they let him get as close as he does. I’m wondering if there’s a ton of variants from that battle mainly Tony thanos and cap. It’s kinda funny to imagine thanos waiting trial at the TVA. How would they even bring that man in like what would they have to use for him? Since magic doesn’t work you would think he’d just physically beat up hundreds of those workers
No no that’s not what I’m saying. I’m asking if he was outside of the Tva in his own timeline with the gauntlet and knew about them. Would he be thereotically able to snap them from existence or would they just come from an alternate one?