T O P

"The only thing in [the MCU's] Phase 4 that was twisted" by the pandemic was "an Easter Egg that originally was going to appear first in BlackWidow and then show up in FalconAndWinterSoldier," reveals MarvelStudios chief Kevin Feige

"The only thing in [the MCU's] Phase 4 that was twisted" by the pandemic was "an Easter Egg that originally was going to appear first in BlackWidow and then show up in FalconAndWinterSoldier," reveals MarvelStudios chief Kevin Feige

Colton826

Very clearly is Val. Wondering if we're going to get a Thunderbolts series/movie, or if they're going to be the main antagonists in another characters' series.


1996crusty

I feel like they're leading up to a movie for this team. Thunderbolts or Dark Avengers or whatever they're going to be called. I wonder who else is going to be on the team though. So far we got John and Yelena.


Feeling_Monk_9605

I’m feeling confident in seeing Zemo, Abomination, Ghost, and Justin Hammer. Maybe Moonstone if she appears in The Marvels


happy_grump

Depending on *if* Elektra and Punisher join the continuity at all, and *when* Deadpool shows up in the MCU, all 3 are also viable candidates for the team.


GliderMan84

NEEDS Punisher IMO.


FromTheOutside31

I cant see how the character from the show would agree to a team up.


becherbrook

Yeah he's more likely to be the target.


Dollface_Killah

[They're gonna need more Thunderbolts then.](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/punisher_kills_the_marvel_universe_scan.png)


Tornado31619

No need for Deadpool or Elektra IMO.


Dinosauringg

Don’t need Deadpool IN the MCU but I do want him to interact with the MCU. Deadpool Kills The MCU could be solid gold


miqbr

Actually Deadpool kills Fox Universe would be better than MCU, it would even explain why they disappeared


Dinosauringg

While you’re correct, why not both?


miqbr

It would be dope


miqbr

Actually Deadpool kills Fox Universe would be better than MCU, it would even explain why they disappeared


Jacktheflash

Disappeared?


Royal-Roll7762

Feige’s probably not going to take inspiration from the weird modern “throw it at the wall and get cancelled in a year or two” comics. He’ll likely go classic Masters of Evil, with some Thunderbolts and Dark Avengers characters.


LucasOIntoxicado

I hope they introduce Songbird. Getting at least one more of the OG team would be nice, and she's the biggest sucess story of the team.


Fattybatman3456

Ooo, Justin Hammer with a drone Titanium Man would be rad.


AdmiralCharleston

Give me 8 foot Russian titanium man or don't bother honestly lmao


Stuntrubbyl0411

Swordsman is a possible candidate with his appearance in Hawkeye, along with Titania in she-hulk


Tornado31619

I’ve been downvoted for saying this before - understandably so, given the corporate impracticalities of this - but I really would not mind seeing Tom Hardy’s Venom on the team. I think he’d be a fun addition.


Comprehensive_Yak_72

with better writing and directing I have no doubt Hardy's Venom would be a good fit for a morbid team like the Dark Avengers or Tunderbolts, Mac Gargan's venom was a member of both, and it would lend the project some more star talent


Tornado31619

Good point regarding that last part. Pugh, Rockwell, Hurt and JDL aren’t *that* big, but Tom Hardy definitely is. And then the likes of HJK and Russell are almost complete unknowns. If Marvel Studios owned Spider-Man and had made Venom, they could even have made Maximum Carnage a Thunderbolts film.


84_ferrari_f40

I think Pugh is pretty popular.she is a good actress so.... Also Russell is more popular as well


Tornado31619

They’re both good actors, but Pugh is only a rising star and Russell literally just broke out. Hardy is bigger than every single potential cast member.


84_ferrari_f40

It would be a hell lot of writing and directing to lauch hardy into the mcu


Tornado31619

It won’t happen, but I’d be all for it. This way, it justifies Venom’s anti-heroism (and gives him stuff to do besides fighting symbiotes). And to be honest, although Venom the film sucked, Eddie and the symbiote did not. They weren’t only the best part of the film, but also genuinely enjoyable to watch.


Mavoy

Hardy is definitely more bankable, but Sam Rockwell won an actual Oscar a few years ago. His fimography is also really strong.


random_guy_somewhere

But they’re also setting up Young Avengers. I have a feeling they are setting up something between the two we have no idea about.


1996crusty

Imo, Young Avengers would work way better as a show. Thunderbolts/Dark Avengers could be the 'Avengers equivalent’ until they come back.


SuperGuttaZombi

Could someone fill me in on the difference between ThunderBolts & Dark Avengers? Are the Dark Avengers bad guys? Because John & Yelena aren't exactly bad people so I don't see how they would willingly go along with doing bad stuff.


Maisticol

The original Thunderbolts were a team of superheroes that turned out to be villains masquerading as heroes in favor of their agenda, with their leader, Citizen V, secretly being Baron Zemo. The irony is that as the story progresses, most of the Thunderbolts end up enjoying being heroes, and turn on their leader. Eventually, "Thunderbolts" became a synonim for "team of former villains/antiheroes", with "Thunderbolt" Ross as one of their leaders. The Dark Avengers have a different origin but are very similar in purpose. Norman Osborn becomes one of the most powerful men in the world (and the leader of SHIELD, among other things) and ends up as the leader of the Avengers, and all of their members are replaced with former villains/antiheroes taking on the mantles of previous Avengers (for example: Bullseye becomes the new Hawkeye, Moonstone -one of Carol Danvers' nemesis- becomes Ms. Marvel, Norman Osborn himself becomes Iron Patriot, etc.). Even though the public knows them as the regular Avengers, to us, they're the "Dark Avengers" because they're part of Norman Osborn's "Dark Reign", and he obviously has an evil agenda behind it. TL;DR: both are teams of villains/antiheroes pretending to be heroes, with some of them eventually finding a path to redemption and actually becoming heroes.


roomie-o

Thank you for taking the time to explain this to us. You've made me want to read the comics even though I've never been interested in reading any of them.


SuperGuttaZombi

Whoa, That's awesome! Thankyou for filling me & whoever wasn't in the know in on these two teams. I'm definitely gonna look more into them. My other two questions ( Sorry lol ) is regarding John & Yelena. Both of them aren't bad people, They're anti-Heroes leaning more into Hero territory. First question is, How do you think John would feel working on a team of bad people/villains when we know, At his core, John wants to do good. My other question is, Do you think Yelena will eventually become a main Avenger like Natasha? Cuz I always thought Yelena's arc would be ThunderBolts/Dark Avengers to becoming an Avenger working with Cap, Spidey etc. Plus, Black Widow is a big name & considering Florence Pugh is Black Widow now, You'd think Marvel would want a version of Black Widow on the new team ready for the next Avengers movie. Sorry for the questions lol just really curious where John & Yelena could go lol


Maisticol

Actually I have the same questions that you do, because the MCU's take on Yelena seems to be pretty different from her comic counterpart, so I wonder what's next for her too. Obviously Florence Pugh is a promising star and Marvel has big plans for them, but who knows. Personally, I think making her Black Widow 2.0 in a new Avengers team would feel kind of repetitive; she's clearly taking the mantle but I think she'll be more of an antihero. The same goes to John, his mind doesn't seem to be in the best of places so I think he will probably end up in a team of this sort, and personally I can see him thinking of himself like "I'm the hero who has to keep these villains in check", while in reality he's as problematic as they are. So yeah, I think both John and Yelena are going into the antihero team path.


SuperGuttaZombi

Whoa, That's awesome! Thankyou for filling me & whoever wasn't in the know in on these two teams. I'm definitely gonna look more into them. My other two questions ( Sorry lol ) is regarding John & Yelena. Both of them aren't bad people, They're anti-Heroes leaning more into Hero territory. First question is, How do you think John would feel working on a team of bad people/villains when we know, At his core, John wants to do good. My other question is, Do you think Yelena will eventually become a main Avenger like Natasha? Cuz I always thought Yelena's arc would be ThunderBolts/Dark Avengers to becoming an Avenger working with Cap, Spidey etc. Plus, Black Widow is a big name & considering Florence Pugh is Black Widow now, You'd think Marvel would want a version of Black Widow on the new team ready for the next Avengers movie. Sorry for the questions lol just really curious where John & Yelena could go lol


haolee510

Adding to the other person's answer, when Walker was warden of the Thunderbolts, the team actually transitioned into Dark Avengers when the main Thunderbolts team went missing. This second Dark Avengers team was first created by Osborn, but after they got rid of Osborn, Walker brought in the Dark Avengers as a replacement for his Thunderbolts, and they function the same way--explosive implants and stuff. The second team is considerably less evil and crazy than the original Dark Avengers, and Skaar(Hulk's son) is even part of the team keeping them in check.


sammo21

Personally, I think the fact there aren't really avengers anymore (in the MCU) is a good lead-in for a team that's a mix of Thunderbolts and the Dark Avengers.


1996crusty

It makes sense. Someone is going to take advantage that the Avengers aren’t around anymore.


sammo21

If Daredevil was officially part of the MCU I could see Bullseye becoming the new Hawkeye for that. Would be awesome if we had a stealth, out of nowhere trailer announcing the new "Avengers" film and it was the Dark Avengers.


SuperGuttaZombi

Could someone fill me in on the difference between ThunderBolts & Dark Avengers? Are the Dark Avengers bad guys? Because John & Yelena aren't exactly bad people so I don't see how they would willingly go along with doing bad stuff.


nicodus24

Dark avengers were villains taking up the mantle of their avengers counterpart such venom being the teams Spider-Man, bullseye being Hawkeye, wolverines son daken as wolverine, and Norman Osborne as iron patriot. Not quite familiar with the history of the thunderbolts.


SuperGuttaZombi

Could someone fill me in on the difference between ThunderBolts & Dark Avengers? Are the Dark Avengers bad guys? Because John & Yelena aren't exactly bad people so I don't see how they would willingly go along with doing bad stuff.


lefromageetlesvers

Thunderbolts are bad guys (the masters of evil) posing as good guys to get the same level of avengers clearance (they appeared when the avengers died during onslaught) (edit:basically their plan is myserio in far from home). Dark Avengers are the official avengers team after secret invasion, every other avengers being onsidered illegal due to SHRA and norman osborn being the head of SHIELD (now called HAMMER). very similar concepts, except in one case, Thunderbolts, there is an undercover/ deception aspect, while the dark avengers are doing what they do legally.


Okaythom

It’s a post credits scene with Zemo Edit: I heard they deleted a post credits F&WS with Zemo being recruited and was set to be on BW but I guess not


Colton826

The post-credits scene is Val recruiting Yelena (I believe. I only read the THR spoiler review once, but I'm pretty sure that's what it was)


1996crusty

Yeah it did say that. And the BBC one said the post-credit scene involved Yelena. The reviews make it seem like there's only one post-credit scene, which is shocking.


Colton826

I could've swore I saw or read something about a mid-credits scene with Taskmaster, but maybe I'm misremembering. But yeah, the post-credits scene is 100% Yelena and Val (at Nat's grave).


1996crusty

I think I read that one too. I wouldn't be surprised if that is the case though. But recently with the movies, the mid-credit scene is setting up something and the post-credit scene was just something comedic (remember that giant Ant playing drums?) I really hope the rumor of Val giving Yelena the mission of killing Clint is true. Can you imagine when they meet up in *Hawkeye*?!


Liocardia

I mean since it's a spoiler reddit, first scene is bw getting a quinjet from OT's character with her infinity war look and second is Yelena on her grave getting recruited to kill Clint by val.


happy_grump

The two post-credits with consistency that I've read are that one PCS has Ross and Taskmaster, and the other involves Yelena and Val, with a connection to Hawkeye


happy_grump

Sometimes Marvel withholds them from early screenings, I've heard that the second involves Ross retrieving Taskmaster's gear so that he can give it to one of his own soldiers


MarvelManiac45213

He better be giving it to Tony Masters...


NailOdd

I think it's MASON


Pizzanigs

Wasn’t there a post in this sub saying the mid-credits was Val recruiting Taskmaster, and the Yelena one was the post-credits?


1996crusty

Tbh I really don't remember. I only remember there was a rumor of Taskmaster being in a post-credit scene. There has been so many rumors regarding what's happening in the post-credit scene since the beginning of last year. It's hard to keep track.


Pizzanigs

Yeah, the post I was talking about seems to have been deleted. It was from the other day and a mod said it was real in the comments. Weird


1996crusty

Either way, Val is recruiting someone in this movie lol.


brasco975

Yeah there was one a while back saying she was recruiting taskmaster and then the second credits scene was Yelena at Natasha's grave or something


Emanuele676

The press preview for Italy included only one scene after the credits.


1996crusty

Wow! If you don't mind me asking, could you post the link to the press preview?


Emanuele676

Do you mean the reviews?


1996crusty

You called it 'The press preview for Italy'


Emanuele676

On Monday, June 28, there was a press preview of the film in Italy in the morning, so some reviews of the film have already been published by some critics who have already seen the full movie. In those reviews, those who have seen the movie said that there was only one scene after the credits (but I'm not sure if then there will really be only one scene after the credits, maybe they cut one of the two for the press...). The movie in Italy is released on Wednesday the 7th in theaters. I didn't understand what you are asking, sorry.


1996crusty

No, I'm sorry. I didn't read your replies correctly. Thanks for clearing it up.


knobby_67

The press preview always meant a private showing pre release for the press. You’d all be in a screening together. That’s why he asks if you mean the reviews they write after the preview. He can post a link to an event.


happy_grump

I also apologize for spamming the replies, my wifi twigged out and duplicated my post :/


happy_grump

I've heard it both ways: that Val is in the mid-credits for BW recruiting Yelena, and that the cut Post-Credits for FaWS was supposed to be Yelena breaking Zemo out of the Raft.


[deleted]

Yelena, Walker, Abomination, Hammer and Ghost should LL for sure be there.


metal_signal17

I think they’ll show up as the Thunderbolts as side characters in another project before evolving into the Dark Avengers during their own movie/show


Cardinal_and_Plum

I could definitely see them as a major part of another character's solo movie. I hadn't even considered that.


Colton826

I've seen some people predicting that they'll be the main villains for Captain America 4, which could work. We'll see what happens.


__Mang0__Tang0__

100%. I’m thinking the end credit scene specifically. We were supposed to “forget” about US Agent wondering what he’s up to and I’m betting that this was going to be the end credit scene for BW reintroducing those characters as a setup for the Thunderbolts


[deleted]

Yelena, Walker, Abomination, Hammer and Ghost should LL for sure be there.


CaptainObvious00Duh

Also, I thought WandaVision's finale was impacted by the pandemic, right? An enitre subplot and cameo was apparently cut out.


regmckie

That wasn't because of the pandemic though, IIRC. It was because they wanted the story to revolve around Wanda, so they cut the Doctor Strange parts.


metros96

There were *some* things that got impacted, like how they staged that scene where Wanda realizes how upset and in pain all the townsfolk were in the finale. Darcy wasn’t in it because the pandemic impacted scheduling etc. I think we should read this as nothing changed that would have impacted the *big picture* narrative arc kind of stuff that Feige would really be interested in. I think it’s fair to say that the pandemic did have an impact a little bit on some of the choices the shows made, that may have had small impacts on the *storytelling*, if not the story itself


regmckie

Sure, I think that's fair. Small things here and there certainly were affected by the pandemic, but as you said, the story itself wouldn't have changed if it weren't for the pandemic.


LokiMyAss

Not That. Wanda and her kids or just the kids were supposed to fight a demon (which was supposed to be senior scratchy transforming into 1) but if I recall correctly, they didnt have time to finish post of that because Disney needed the series to release in that time. And they had to play around


smaltkarna

The director said they cut that out because it didn’t fit with everything else in the finale


Jaded-Ad-9287

That's bullshit hollywood they use to paper over the cracks. It made the series worse since they didn't know what to do with the pieces surrounding the main characters


regmckie

He said that it was cut because it was a "detour" from the main storyline: [https://youtu.be/AF0ILuyV9Nc?t=352](https://youtu.be/AF0ILuyV9Nc?t=352)


CaptainObvious00Duh

OK, but if I remember correctly, there was a subplot revolving around Monica Rambeau, Ralph Bohner, Billy and Tommy finding the Darkhold in the basement and fighting a now-monstrous Señor Scratchy in the way that was removed as there weren't able to finish the VFX on time. That had to be due to the pandemic, right?


regmckie

I don't think that was because of the pandemic, per se. I think they cut that out because it just didn't fit well with the rest of the story or something.


HISHAM-888

My theory is that because wanda was supposed to be the last one, dr strange would show in the finale to set up the end credits scene of spiderman, that would set up multiverse of madness.


SeniorRicketts

Kevin Feige said before WandaVision, Nobway home and DS2 is connected. And sony said last yearwe would get news or our first look at spider man in december. December was also when WV was originally planned to launch.


snowhawk04

Wasn't there also a fictional virus in *The Falcon and the Winter Soldier* that was cut?


NewPelli

My understanding is that this is a theory from Nando v Movies based on evidence in the text, not anything based on any interviews or anything else from the people surrounding it.


OutRagousGameR

Someone correct me if I’m wrong… I think what happened was they talked about a virus in the writers room but never went though with it, and people blew it out of proportion?


minnesotawild4life

Val


sahil2921

no one calls her that


minnesotawild4life

I just did so you can't say no one


bigfudge_drshokkka

You totally alley ooped it for him.


Jacktheflash

That’s just not true


ConstrictionsOFC

I smell a Fontaine


MulciberTenebras

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ng2MoKH7Sgg


[deleted]

I'm old enough to remember arguments in this sub over order of release. Folks insisted there was no way BW and FWS could be switched because of connective tissue. It was one scene, and it still works even when the order was reversed.


WhiteWolf3117

Folks will be disappointed when NWH and MoM is the same.


BenSolo_Cup

MoM was rewritten in 2020 by Michael Waldron and sam raimi after Scott Derrickson left the project, so I don’t think it’s the same


[deleted]

Keep in mind that normally Marvel films with heavy development/production overlap steer clear of one another. It's like two moving targets trying to hit each other. They're not *not* connected, but they're not Part 1 / Part 2 either.


ThisIsNotMelTorme

That's the issue with some fans; they're too preoccupied with continuity above everything else, so when one MCU movie allegedly 'contradicts' another, they went apeshit. I'm personally fine with the 'loose' continuity of the films, as I treat each film as mere POV of it's main character ala Rashomon. For example, the scene where Spidey went 'Holy Shit!' where Ant-Man go big in both Civil War & Homecoming. Civil War sees Spidey as naive while Homecoming is, from his POV, in awe of what just happened.


MBDTFTLOPYEEZUS

I mean it is set-up weird in F&TWS it’s built up for a slow reveal for a character then when it shows her face we have no idea who she is.


WhiteWolf3117

It was set up that way precisely to reveal who she was, not so that we would recognize her.


MBDTFTLOPYEEZUS

I mean I don’t agree with that. You don’t do a slow build from the feet all the way up to the face just for someone we don’t recognize. Given that BW was supposed to come first if they didn’t re-shoot that than it was shot exactly for us to be like “OH It’s the girl from the BW post credit scene!”


[deleted]

We recognized her because it's JLD. It was playing that surprise for anyone who knows her.


PortuguesePede

> “OH It’s the **girl** from the BW post credit scene!” A Woman First.


Emanuele676

Dude, you're right. Absurd this sub, he believes the first leaker who guesses a leak and then doesn't believe Feige....


Emanuele676

It's pretty noticeable to me that that scene was supposed to be a cameo by a previously introduced character, otherwise it's not clear why it was presented with hype, as if it was supposed to be a revelation.


AdmiralCharleston

Well Julia Louis dreyfus showing up in itself was enough of a hype moment


Shubhamshinde786

Yeah this just made the Falcon and the Winter Soldier ending even worse now that you know that there was no pandemic storyline cut out and the flagsmashers were really just shit villains with weak motivations. Oof


RJE808

I'll stand by my opinion: Karli is one of the top 3 worst villains in the MCU.


Hearderofnerf

The worst imo. Idk who is worse


jtyndalld

Give me a megalomaniac elf over a bland crusader any day


Hearderofnerf

Yeah!


Zinc116

Hayward is up there


AlphaBaymax

If he turns out to be an evil Skrull which is likely given his obsession with government assets then that will retroactively make Hayward a literal covert terrorist.


JoeyZio

Hayward wasn't too bad up until the finale when he went full mustache-twirling villain. His actions up until that point were believable as someone who was just in over his head with power in a position that he knows he didn't earn.


TheNightstroke

He authorized a drone strike on children in an earlier episode.


JoeyZio

My memory is hazy, but I thought that was just on Wanda. Still a totally fair point though!


Texomond

The kids were indeed standing [right next to her](https://i.imgur.com/SMyf0tg.png)


Hearderofnerf

Hayward wasn’t annoying af though


Allion221

It's really not an exaggeration to say the boat had more of a character arc and story than she did. I mean right up to her final moments her character was flip flopping.


snowhawk04

If only Marvel Studios had a show explore the world/universe during the snap to build up the flagsmashers.


[deleted]

i hate that the MCU is calling it 'The blip'.


Shubhamshinde786

And I will back you up on it 👍


[deleted]

She honestly could have been a great villian. Either a sympathetic character that let her good and just ideas run to wild or and unforgiving "the world is black and white" type character that never gave up on her idea no matter how wrong she was But Marvel didn't pick a side and we got what we got....


MBDTFTLOPYEEZUS

I mean no matter how many times they say it I don’t buy it. They don’t want people to think they got a lesser project so they say nothing interfered and everything is the way it should be but everything else points to this not being the case.


FN-1701AgentGodzilla

I think a lot of things definitely got changed due to covid. I don’t believe Feige’s word here lol Just look at the release schedule before the covid delays.


erickgramajo

Exactly


FN-1701AgentGodzilla

I think a lot of things definite got changed due to covid. I don’t believe Feige’s word here lol


jdubzzzzzzz

Came here for this comment. Overall I enjoyed FATWS, and hoped that it’s shortcomings were related to pandemic related changes. But no, it was just bad writing. And now there’s going to be a cap movie written by the same individual. I will say the Isaiah Bradley stuff was primo, so I just hope his film reflects that kind of talent, not the flagsmashers/powerbroker bullshit.


Ekez42

I just think they tried to do too much in only six episode. Too many characters and stories, so few episodes. It should have been fleshed out with 8, maybe even 10 episodes. Maybe then the Flag Smashers would have been better


AlphaBaymax

Without a doubt, there's no incentive to root for Karli's cause when we never saw her life prior to the blip. There should have been a scene dedicated to that and a scene showing the emotional turmoil of her being disenfranchised because of people returning.


Sempere

They needed two episodes to flesh out Karli and the FlagSmashers and they needed to bring back Marcus and McFeeley to write Bucky's arc because for someone that's a co-lead, he got fucking shafted in that finale. They straight up Yadda Yadda Yadda'd through his resolution. They also could have used Marcus and McFeeley to flesh out the progression of the story. Half the developments that send Sam and Bucky in different directions happen off screen. Bucky conveniently knowing where a MIA supersoldier happens to be living in secret from the US government was a pretty big stretch. That shit should have been uncovered by the two investigating rather than "yea, I knew this guy the whole time and know exactly where he lives." Show needed to be 9-10 episodes to be a fully realized series - and it also needed some more writers to keep the new ones in check and ensure quality control. That Powerbroker twist is literally reliant on Steve Rogers being a massive piece of shit.


ItsAmerico

Sorry I don’t believe this at all. > Q: Given how the production had to pause due to Covid, were you in a situation where you literally scrapped the script and began anew, i.e. cut out and rewrote act 2? >A: I dream of the day when Kevin (Feige) talks about the versions of this series that did not go forward because you would think we had a crystal ball Via the show runner himself. With all the leaks, the production title and everything, I just flat out refuse to believe there was no cut pandemic storyline. I’m aware this is what Disney is claiming but I think it’s bullshit. It might not have been filmed, or whatever, but it’s super clear some stuff was changed and downplayed. That said I also don’t think he’s saying this is the only thing covid altered. I think he’s saying it’s the only thing covid altered that we couldn’t adjust. You’re suppose to see Val first in Black Widow, you don’t now.


Sempere

Yea, TFATWS finale was terrible. It legitimately feels like there's at least 2 hours of story missing to flesh out the villains. But I guess Fiege just gave the writers free reign and that was a big fucking mistake on a lot of levels.


____mynameis____

But I still think some scenes might have been rewritten due to the pandemic. Look, for a "global movement" like the flagsmashers, they never showed a gathering bigger than 20 people. The refugee camps were deserted. I believe that if they showed us some more sympathetic scenes involving the refugees, the FS would have come out a little better. I don't believe the writers didn't even think of having a huge protest outside the UN building during the vote. The pandemic might not have changed the story drastically, but must have caused the rewriting of a lot of scenes involving the FS.


mertag770

I mean that theory never made a ton of sense and mostly seemed like people looking for evidence to prove it. NR did a lot of work looking at weird editing changes, but from what we know about production most of their scenes were filmed after covid shut stuff down so if they were going to make changes they'd likely have done that before filming scenes they'd need to cut.


bananamadafaka

Yep, Val.


CommunistHermitCrab

Don't call her that, just keep it in your head


Tazran16

Yeah, we saw the easter egg. To put it simply, the US Agent cut the queue for his own vaccination. Typical asshole.


Yungwolfo

Americas asshole


JohannSchmidt1943

I don’t buy it. NWH and MoM switched order, and they share characters


Arrowhead1337

I believe what happened there was MoM's date was announced, then NWH which I believe is picked by Sony not Marvel. Then MoM was pushed back to compensate Strange being in it. So it went MoM announced, then NWH got placed then MoM moved because of it. Probably would've happened without the pandemic


astrothwnder

also, MoM changed writer and director.


[deleted]

Like we see with FWS and BW, connective tissue can work multi-directionally. Or perhaps it was never so deep it couldn't be adjusted in small ways to account for the switch.


SurfiNinja101

MOM was also completely rewritten when Raimi came on board.


Frazzledsoul

You mean the pandemic didn't keep them from having Wandavision revolve entirely around a side character and the glorious re-introduction of the X Men instead of the characters in the title? You don't say.


CaptainObvious00Duh

\*cough\* JLD \*cough\*


WhiteWolf3117

Inb4 people are skeptical.


lefromageetlesvers

I mean, i am skeptical: when they revealed Agatha Harkness was behind it "all along", i naturally assumed that it meant that someone else was behind it all along, and that someone was Mephisto, obviously working with Nightmare, building a multiverse from which pietro came from, which would reintroduce the fox universe x-men in the MCU (maybe with a ten minute monologue from the fox legal department to explain the legal differences between the different IP's or something), and that the show would end in a final battle with wanda, vision, dr strange, Monica rambeau,Charles Xavier, the engineer (obviously basheer working with reed richards, since it was obvious the last episode was going to introduce the fantastic four) and the twins with the young avengers (also introduced in the last episode) fighting mephisto, nightmare, hayward, magneto, white vision and agatha harkness. ​ It was OBVIOUS. ​ So the only OBVIOUS explanation for my theories (which are not theories, but fair assumptions based on the show) is that that finale was rewritten due to covid. I mean, it's either that, or the villain was Agatha Harkness all along, which is only supported by the basic understanding of story structure and a killer song that actually spells out she is the one villain of the show, so that can't be it. ​ edit: i forgot to mention that obiously they had to cut all the scenes of people being revealed to be skrulls.


Motor_Link7152

so if we do get a thunderbolts project, who could be the villain in that?


Arrowhead1337

My hope is The Leader


SuperCoenBros

Probably Julia Louis Dreyfus herself.


[deleted]

Valentina Allegra de Fontaine


SOH972

Nah, not only that. I’m pretty sure that before the pandemic No Way Home was planned to be a regular Spiderman movie with Peter just being on the run and solving his identity problem. The multiverse was not in the original script.


shadymostafa129034

I'm pretty sure that the multiverse plot was added after the Sony marvel breakout, then Sony became greedy and decided they want Spiderman 3 to be one of the biggest marvel movies and get alot of money or they won't let Holland be in the mcu


mike2k24

I don’t agree with this. Disney seemed to be heading towards the multiverse route since Endgame released. Pretty sure it was always in there plans


Dobby30

Ancient one even talks about the multiverse in DS1.


mike2k24

This exactly. That’s why I’m not convinced that the whole multiverse deal started with Spider-Man. Was obviously being hinted at before


FN-1701AgentGodzilla

Yeah, it’s weird that they were still trying to cast the spider-verse appearances, particularly Maguire even after filming already started.


RainingBolts

tbh it's possible they wanted to focus on just the villains before Tobey/Andrew casting rumours snowballed to what they are now. I know that more and more about their roles in the film and how they're apparently major characters is being reported by scoopers... but at the same time I think it's important to remember that until it's official it's *possible* that they're just post-credits teases at most.


Emanuele676

It doesn't make a lot of sense, why would they increase the size of the film after a pandemic, which they didn't know when they could shoot and when the films would open?


Whooper121

As much as I want to believe this, is there a source anywhere that states that it wasn’t a multiverse movie pre-pandemic?


[deleted]

All folks have to go on is Watts saying he'd like to do Kraven, but it doesn't prove anything really. It's just assumptions. Also, during that short-lived period in summer 2019 when SM3 almost wasn't a Marvel Studios project, I have a vague recollection of Holland hinting at Sony's big plans to transition the franchise out of the MCU. I think they told him then what they had in mind (to ease his concerns) and it probably wasn't a Kraven story.


SSexpress

What makes you pretty sure of that?


Cafeterialoca

I don't know, the fact that there was a stunt coordinated fight for Falcon and Winter Soldier that was posted on youtube makes me think both WandaVision and that show had a bunch of things rearranged...


worktheshoot

Funny how many many you tubers were bending over backwards to use the pandemic to explain away the reasoning for the first 2 “okay” D+ Shows and now feige is basically saying the opposite. Imo something wasn’t “right” about how both wv and fatws ended but I guess feige wants the fan reaction to be solely on quality and not circumstance. If that’s the case then There’s no excuses, they were sub par.


RaidenX17

Elena and John in the same team? Sign me up!


SmokeQuiet

Are there 2 post credit scenes in Black Widow or only 1? The reviews have only mentioned 1, from what I’ve seen but maybe there’s one in the movie when it’s officially released?


Physical_Manu

There is at least 1. Press screenings often do not have the second one if there is one. In fact with Avengers they did not even film the second one until the movie has started premiering in some countries.


BlazingInfernape2003

Sounds like Contessa to me, still expecting her to show up in a postcredit scene


blackbutterfree

So Val’s introduction?


MKlock94

Its probably Madam Hydra


LokiMyAss

Fontaine it is


ethmer25

Wait are you saying Covid didnt stop Doctor Strange from showing up in WandaVision? Wasnt that the big excuse Murphy had for his false leaks?


Failing__Upward

Ye I'm not buying it


MKlock94

Its probably Madam Hydra


AVeryPositiveGuy

*I don’t believe you*


Cardinal_and_Plum

It definitely seemed like this might have been the case. The evidence for changes in script were based solely off of speculation and observation as opposed to talk from anyone who would be in the know. I think it's not too unreasonable to assume that Falcon and the Winter Soldier featured some iffy writing and that the villains weren't super well written. It certainly wouldn't be the first time.


Swimming_Ambition872

It's Val she was gonna debut in BLACK WIDOW before THE FALCON AND THE WINTER SOLDIER and she is gonna appear in this movie too.


wolky324

There was a whole pandemic storyline in TFATWS that was cut out


Jdawger_

Well, and that virus and quarantine subplot in FWS that was removed for obvious reasons


[deleted]

If this is true, the then FatWS subplot about stealing medicine makes even less sense.


fraichealguhl

Probably just Madame Hydra